SPEAKER_00 0:38

Hello, you're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast. This is the podcast where we try to put philanthropy in context. I'm your host, Rodri Davis, and this week we have a conversation with Monica Stryker from Foundations for Ukraine. Now I sat down with Monica, well, literally I've just come off a call with Monica, so I thought I'd record this intro straight away afterwards, because I'm going to be travelling next week, so uh peek behind the curtain. Um but yeah, we sat down uh to talk about her work with Foundations for Ukraine. Um and as I explained in the interview, um this came about because I saw Monica speak at the Philea conference uh earlier this year in Copenhagen, and I was really struck by what she said when she was in a panel session. I thought it was really interesting. I was very keen to get her on the podcast to talk about this topic of Ukraine and philanthropy and what philanthropy is doing in relation to the war in Ukraine. Um so yeah, we talked about a bit about kind of how Foundations for Ukraine came about, what the network is, what it's trying to do. Um we also gave a little bit of historical context. Monica really helpfully kind of explained what civil society in Ukraine looked like, you know, post-the-Soviet era, but before we get into the the current situation, which I think was really uh interesting and really helpful. And then we talked a lot about obviously the situation since uh 2022 with the war and the Russian invasion. Um we talked about you know that initial surge of uh donations that came in and what that looked like and where some of that came from, uh, and then that donor fatigue that seems to have set in and kind of why that was and what kind of challenges that's posed. Um we talked about, from the point of view of foundations, how they had fit funding for Ukraine into their existing missions and programmes and sort of the different ways in which they uh explain that and kind of understand it, which I think was uh really interesting. We talked about where the money goes, so how much of it is going to international NGOs operating in Ukraine versus how much is going to uh Ukrainian NGOs and grassroots organisations, and how much of it is kind of bypassing altogether and going to sort of informal groups and even individuals. Um we talked about how uh civil society organisations in Ukraine have kind of harnessed technology to do really interesting things around fundraising and making donations um possible. Uh we also talked um uh about the way in which uh the lines around philanthropy have become a bit blurred in the context of Ukraine where often the the need that is being uh kind of highlighted is one for military support uh or kind of equipment or ammunition or uh in order to fight the war and to defend themselves, and whether the funding for that to the kind of so-called lethal aid idea that's arisen, whether that should be seen as philanthropy and kind of how it sits alongside more traditional philanthropic humanitarian causes. Um we talked a bit about some of the challenges that organisations funding in Ukraine have found. Um and then we talked about what can be learnt from what's happening in Ukraine and the way in which uh civil society and philanthropy has kind of responded to those challenges and what can be learned by organisations working or funding elsewhere. Um so without further ado, let's go into the conversation. As I think you'll probably hear, I found this absolutely fascinating. I thought it was really, really interesting, and some really kind of insightful things that Monica said uh you know made me really think as we were going along. So I hope you really enjoy this one. Uh I will be back at the end for a little bit of housekeeping. You're listening to the Philanthropisms podcast with Rodri Davis. Okay, great. Well, I'm here with Monica Stryker from Foundations for Ukraine. Hi there, Monica.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Hi, Rodri. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Yeah, well, great to have you on the podcast. Um, and for people listening, I should say um I was really keen to do this one. It's a topic I've been wanting to cover ages, but then I saw you on the stage at a session of this year's Philea Forum uh in Copenhagen, and I thought what you're saying was really powerful and interesting, so I was very keen to have a chance to chat a bit more. Um, maybe the best place to start is for people uh just to tell everybody listening what Foundations for Ukraine actually is and kind of how that network came about.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Yeah, uh I actually am a fan of your podcast, so I listened to it quite a bit, and I was always searching for topics on Ukraine. So I'm happy we're doing this today and uh ready to jump into it. Um, Foundations for Ukraine is a network of philanthropic organizations that are engaged in Ukraine. And uh we started working about a year and a half ago, um, and the actual network was initiated by foundations themselves. So it came about with the idea of uh Robert Bosch Foundation and Charles Stuart Mott Foundation from the state a little bit over two years ago, and from the start, it was a very kind of collaborative story. So, what they did is that at one of the filet conferences, they just invited people for lunch and they shared the idea. Uh, and out of that, kind of the network grew. Um, so before there was any you know, coordination, secretariat, anything uh kind of formal around it, it was a conversation between foundations who weren't engaged in Ukraine and support Ukraine and uh are trying to figure out how to do it best. Um and there were two issues that they wanted to tackle with that. So the first one is um a general funding decline, which we saw quite heavily. Um, the timeline also collided with the USAID um withdrawal as well. Um, and the second one is um quite a big fragmentation of philanthropic funding in Ukraine. So I feel like after USAID step out, all of a sudden you could you could see who else is there. And it was clear that there's quite a few private um foundations, uh family offices, but they didn't really know who each other are, you know, and and and so there was this interest around understanding, okay, is there uh can philanthropy be kind of a distinct stakeholder in Ukraine's recovery as well? Um so these were two questions from the start that they brought in. And around that, eight foundations came together who said, look, we uh see this makes sense and we want to invest our time and capacity into figuring out how this can go. Um and so they were working just collaboratively between themselves for the first probably half a year until then. Uh, I was able to come on board and um we kind of kicked it off more uh formally in February last year.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Great, that's really helpful. And obviously, I want to, you know, a lot of what we talk about, I think, is going to be framed around the situation that's currently there following the Russian invasion and the war. And um, but before we get there, I would I'd be really interested to kind of get a bit of context about what philanthropy and civil society in Ukraine itself looked like before that, so that people have a have a sense. Um, like obviously it's a kind of post-Soviet state anyway. Is it one of those places where those general trends of civil society somewhat having been kind of marginalized or shrunk during that period was the case? And then afterwards it was kind of resurgent. And what was that looking like at the point before the Russian invasion?

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Um so, Raji, where at the historical point do you want to start? Do we go before the Soviet Union or during the Soviet Union or we could go as far back as we look back?

SPEAKER_00 8:25

We should probably cover it in reasonably top-line detail. But just I think interesting, just to get a sense so that we're not just thinking about uh Ukraine as somewhere that is the kind of recipient of philanthropy, but I'm sort of interested in what its own kind of landscape of philanthropy, and particularly what civil society looked like in terms of the sorts of organizations and how healthy it was.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Um yeah, so uh civil society, um, I think uh I just read an article recently. There isn't actually so much research, unfortunately, on looking specifically into the civil society and philanthropy in Ukraine. There are a few articles, but I really wish there was more. But one thing I found interesting, um, I recently saw uh an article saying that it uh the civil society in Ukraine was often described as dormant civil society. So it uh within uh the international institutions looking into the country, they often said it's not very active. So there is a lot of organizations that are registered, um, but the actually you know societal engagement around it is quite low. I think they were very much looking from kind of the perspective of the uh Western civil society framework. And what's important to understand is that this um border between the formalized nonprofit and the civil society in Ukraine is is is quite vague. So, yes, maybe for nonprofit's sake and you know the research template, it was true. Um, but the moment that the crisis hit, this civil society mobilized to the extent that you know was unprecedented. So, what they say it was like organizations without the civil society, and then after, I don't know, first revolution 2004, then the second 2014, it was like civil society kind of without the organizations. So this is the um, I think more or less the nature of uh of the civil society in Ukraine um before 2014. Um, so as the independence of Ukraine was taking shape, a lot of movements that were formed still during the Soviet Union they played a massive role in transitioning into that independent state. And kind of the uh 90s were a moment where civil society was still identifying itself. So it was still trying to understand how we function, what we are, what we do, how we move forward. So the movements were working towards independence. Now independence was there, and it was like, okay, so now we need to form kind of around that independence. And that was also the moment when a lot of uh foreign funding started to come in. So it was mainly governmental budgets first, um, with USAID uh quite a bit, um, and um, and then also a few private foundations stepped in, uh, and they funded uh this capacity building for civil society. So that was their focus at the time. Um the very first foundation that stepped uh into the country even before independence was actually the Open Society Foundation, uh, with Ukrainian branch International Renaissance Foundation, who's also one of our members now. Uh so they were kind of the first ones to start catalyzing and you know working towards the formalization. Uh the MacArthur Foundation, I think, was also one of the first ones to come in in the 90s, and uh uh Charles Stuart Mott as well. And they were the ones who uh were funding uh really outside Cave. So they were focusing on building the capacity of uh, you know, not the big guys, but the communities around uh to formalize and move towards like a more formalized civil society. But the big push for it was uh, of course, the yeah, the revolution in 2004, and uh that was a moment where um it was around fraudulent elections. Uh so the civil society from being kind of uh perceived as someone who provides services or does events, you know, takes care of the youth or elderly people, it was all of a sudden position of watchdogging. Uh, there was um a big accent on the independent media. Um, it was you know a question of anti-corruption. Um, and so that was uh like the moment where I think that uh that part of the civil society was starting to become more uh evident. And of course, uh 2014, the revolution of dignity and um the start of the war, uh that changed uh changed everything.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

So yeah, this was kind of bits and pieces from all around gives a really good sense of how things sort of develop prior to the situation that's currently happening. I guess picking up on that, it'd be really interesting to go through. I mean, you mentioned it a little bit there, the sort of timeline in terms of what what's happened, because I think people might be aware that in that early phase, immediately sort of following the Russian invasion, it felt like there was a kind of upsurge of support for Ukraine and you know, a lot of donations making its way making their way there. Um is that the case? And sort of if so, where were those donations coming from? I mean, at that point, was it individuals, was it the foundations that were supporting? What was that kind of initial surge of donations like?

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Yeah, so I in 2022 it was probably an unprecedented amount of support uh that came into Ukraine. Um, there were some attempts to also trace that. I think Candid did uh did a research on that, looking at who gave and and how. It seemed from based on their research that most of the uh support was still connected to North America and Western Europe, uh, probably some from Japan, uh, and um a huge role that Ukrainian diaspora, especially in Canada, played in mobilizing and catalyzing um that giving. Um, but I remembering those first days of war, and also I was already working in philanthropy and uh kind of seeing from inside the reactions, I just feel like everyone gave. Like everyone. And it's uh impossible to track that now. I think we will never have data on the amount that went in, where exactly it went from, how it came through, but everyone gave. Um, with my foundation uh or foundation where I worked when the war started, uh, they have uh just made a decision to donate 50,000 euros so we were able to buy tourniquets because that was the thing that was missing. And I just found the supplier in the Netherlands and you know was able to purchase that, and then they gave me two weeks um to be able to travel to Ukraine and to bring that, and you know, and so it was, you know, all these different forms. Our neighbors brought things so we can take with us, you know, it's everyone somehow sent money just randomly. The amount of money that went through our personal accounts at that point that was also, I mean, it's crazy. Like it was these first days, it was something like I've never seen before. Uh, and so while we do have this data and we can, you know, kind of speculate, okay, that a lot came from there, a lot came from there, a lot came from there. I really everyone gave. That's my kind of short answer. And I think it's it's it's so special that this happened, but I'm also looking back like I wish that there were more people who were able to withhold that uncomfort of you know, reaction and say, I think this is long term, so let's preserve and let's kind of go slower. Um, and actually, I've been, you know, in touch with so many philanthropies and foundations over the last years, and there's only one, only one single foundation who I know that from the money that was allocated to Ukraine in that first week, they have stretched them over the five years. So from the start, they said from like the week one, they said this is a long term. Even if it stops in two weeks, we're gonna have consequences we're gonna have to take care of. And so even until now, they still have the funding that goes into Ukraine where we clearly see, you know, a decline of that support um from uh uh international philanthropic community.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

And and you mentioned before that it's part of the reason for having set up the network of um foundations for Ukraine is that there was that kind of donor fatigue. Um why do you think that is? Is it just a kind of natural thing that happens when anything moves from kind of crisis response to dealing with longer-term, you know, something as a longer-term issue? Or as you say, is there a kind of challenge in that actually from the outset, people probably should have recognized that this was going to be something that required not just crisis response but longer-term funding. And so, you know, the the difficulty is if everybody just kind of immediately does it as a crisis response, there's always going to be that kind of drop-off.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yeah, Rodri, I I wish I knew kind of a very pragmatic answer to that question beyond my own speculations. Um, I mean, it's been five years now almost. As a Ukrainian, I'm also tired. I also feel fatigue. And I don't even live in Ukraine. So I live abroad. So can you imagine my colleagues and and friends the amount of fatigue they feel? So I just want to acknowledge that I think it's normal to feel like look, it's it's just you know, there is no resolution that we have inside, and it keeps going on. And it's okay to say we're tired, that it does. And the adrenaline that was there, maybe that sense of you know, everything is possible at the start, we're gonna withstand and withhold this freedom, and everyone is behind us, that has also faded. So, you know, you I think it's it's just yeah, important to say that I understand when people say, look, we're we're tired of it. Now the question is what we do with that, with this tiredness, you know, because it's uh it's it's normal, but uh I don't think it it should be or can be an excuse within the circumstances that we are in uh now. I do think that there is that you know perception of someone you really want to help. And so the moment you do it, you can let go a little bit. So, yes, I do think that initial surge played into it, and it's like um many funders will will, you know, first thing they tell me before I even ask anything, and just say I work for foundations for Ukraine, they'll be like, Oh, we already funded there. Like we already, like we're done, you know, we did it, like it's a check. We did more than we did anywhere else. Like this will be the first uh reaction that uh that I get. And yeah, and it and I do I do wish that there was a capacity, you know, to stay with that discomfort a little bit more and to uh kind of think more strategically at that moment, but uh we can't do that right now. Um, I think also in general we are in a very interesting moment globally. Uh there is uh quite turbulent times, and I think the norms are shifting quite a bit. I'm not sure that uh, you know, it it feels like really a moment where the old or the norms that we knew and were comfortable with, they are under question, but the new ones aren't clear yet. So it's like they're competing, you know. So then what's gonna be the norm, the next norm? And I philanthropy I work with, they still very much function within this institutional logic that there is an emergency and that there is, you know, a moment that recovery happens, and then after that happens, you can develop. But you know, it within Ukraine and also across the globe, it's not the case anymore. It happens all at the same time. So this uh emergency doesn't stop, and then there is no end to it. You don't see you know where it's going. The recovery happens at the same time because people want to continue living and they want to, you know, even more probably than they have, because now they don't know if they have tomorrow. So this desire and this fullness, curiosity of life, I think is is even bigger than than before, and uh also maybe the courage to take risks and to really step into the full potential. So this recovery happens like ongoingly, you know. You want to you want to be able to maybe like cover the emergency with this recovery, it's also an action you can do to do it, and then there is also this whole idea of development, and it's also something we can't stop. It's happening technologically, it's happening, you know. I don't know if it's development or maybe a change, I I would say, but but it it's it's there. So you have this survival, but you have this also desire for building something, and then you know, a global kind of shift and change, really like combined at the same time, but we are trying to respond to it within the institutional frameworks that we know. So still we're asking, so where is the impact? Like we're still trying to predict when the war might end. Like, will this help when the ceasefire comes? You know, these are kind of the questions where we're trying to um put it into some kind of framework, some kind of logic that we know. Um, but I don't think it it works right now. Uh, and to be fair with Ukraine, we don't know if this is the middle of the war, if this is the end of the war, if this is the beginning of the war. We have no idea. Like it's very difficult to make these predictions. And I think this is also very tiring because you're you know, you're trying to explain something, you're trying To put something into logical frameworks that at this moment of time simply doesn't follow these rules. And so for me, I also think that maybe if you know if some institutions aren't able to hold that complexity or to make changes internally that will allow for their further engagement with that, this is also this is also the moment that they would say, you know, we have to look into something else.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

On that question actually about sort of institutional frameworks, one of the things I was wondering is, you know, whether the fact that a lot of thinking about foundations in particular, that they operate according to uh sort of set criteria about what their charitable mission is, and they also often have specific programs set up. Is it the case that kind of fitting in funding for Ukraine within that becomes a barrier for some organizations because it's not clear where it fits? And and for those that you you're working with through the network, where does it fit within what they're doing? How do they frame their support for Ukraine in terms of their programs and their mission?

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Um, so we have 21 foundations in our network at the moment, uh, and they are each its own story. So when it comes to Ukraine, it's very difficult to generalize even that. So there are maybe a few patterns I can identify. In some cases, foundations made an exception. They said, look, our strategy is this. Ukraine is really important for us. This doesn't, you know, it we don't know how to fit it into strategy we have. So we're making an exception, and we have like this additional line of work that we're doing. So it's either a department or a special program or a special division, but it's this on top um kind of of their regular work. Some really took Ukraine into their programmatic portfolio and said, uh, we've never worked in Ukraine. So we have one foundation in Denmark, Denmark, their focus was only Denmark, actually, but now they're increasingly looking into engaging in Ukraine. You know, and that's also a very interesting process because it's it's like what are the right what are the questions you ask? Like, how do you how do you start? How what are the topics? You know, is it how is the topic we work with here different from the topic in there? Um, but they're aiming to make it, you know, a part of their ongoing programming work. For some, they've been in Ukraine for years and they're just continuing. It has been their focus, and you know, it stays so. So it's really very much, very much depends on on the foundation itself. I think there's also quite a big difference if it's a private foundation or you know, with a um donor, funder who's alive, who travels to Ukraine, to who has relationships, has family connections, has also diaspora background that is one culture of giving, and very often that combines giving through foundation, but also personal giving. You know, it's it's it's that like very personal engagement uh that is there. And then um there is foundations uh, you know, who are connected to corporations, and so it's a question of the board and a question of um of this longer kind of decision-making cycle. So um the ones I think uh where uh it is where there is a connection to corporation, they they would be the ones saying, you know, this is we have to like really explain it through through the strategy, whereas others have more flexibility. And then um, if it's a family foundation and it's mainly family who's in the board, we also have cases where you know um they uh funded in Ukraine, then they stopped, and then all of a sudden a new family member comes in and they have again that personal um commitment to Ukraine, and so the program teams are starting to create new ways and uh new um avenues of giving. Um, and then also we have some family offices in our uh network as well. So um it's interesting to see the difference in that logic as well. Um, I think with family offices, there is um a lot more kind of boldness in their vision in terms of like, okay, we want to see that this really helps to stop the war. Uh, and that's you know a claim that it's it's a quite big vision and mission that you want to make. So it's it's extremely different from a foundation to foundation. And um, this is also the reason that I think this network uh has so much value. It's uh people that otherwise I don't think would ever or maybe very rarely talk to um talk to each other and find each other and seeing these different approaches and understanding, okay, the way that we work elsewhere might not work here. So how do you get this done or how do you you know make sense of this? I think I see that this really generates the the value. Um and also with many cases, there will be either one person who's fully dedicated to Ukraine or you know, one person who has like 50% capacity, and and that's also a place where uh I think just personally they find the feeling of a team, maybe where you know you can um you can understand how to yeah, we or you you can just ask questions that uh maybe you can't otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah, I mean it's often the case in other contexts I hear you from foundations that it can be quite a lonely business, particularly if you work in a smaller organization with you know sort of not that much staff, actually, you know, often you're not really aware what everybody else is doing and you can feel quite isolated, which particularly I guess around a thing like the situation in Ukraine is a big challenge. I wanted to ask actually, as well, in terms of where the money is coming into Ukraine, how it is getting to where it's needed, in the sense of kind of how much of it is going into international organizations and NGOs that are then operating in Ukraine versus going to kind of grassroots Ukrainian-based organizations, or even kind of bypassing that altogether and just going to you know informal groups or individuals.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

There is only one figure that I uh know uh that has been researched on this. Uh, and this was the report done by Chatham House in 2025. And so what they did is they analyzed kind of the UN track flows, so it's mainly the humanitarian uh funding and uh uh humanitarian response. And in their research, it said that less than 1% of nearly 10 billion in humanitarian funding had gone directly to Ukrainian CSOs. So, meaning that the rest has been channeled through UN agencies or international NGOs. So, this is, in my opinion, very little. Uh, but again, this is one research and this is kind of one um funding flow that we're looking at. Uh, so it I think at the beginning of the war, uh, there has been much more of uh funding going through INGOs or intermediaries, but in the past years, civil society in Ukraine has also been doing an extraordinary work advocating for localizations and setting systems in place that would build trust between the local organizations and the donors, that would build connections, that would build bridges, and really asking for that direct, um direct support and direct commitment and direct trust. Um, so within philanthropy and more of a private giving, I would say that the number is probably reversed. So I would say probably 90% go directly to Ukraine and increasingly more and more foundations are taking it as their goal to uh to not go through um through big INGOs, through intermediaries and so on. But again, you know, it's it's difficult going back to these frameworks. Like this question of impact, question of reporting, question of, you know, if we give to A, this will lead to B. This is something that uh Ukrainian CSOs, especially the ones the closest to the needs, or the ones, you know, the closest to the front lines, they are the ones with the least capacity to be able to report on that, to, you know, create uh elaborate uh theories of change and uh be able to convince that you know this need is actually the most strategic need right now. But I do see this trend shifting. I I do really see this this uh you know trust emerging and and uh a further recognition of Ukrainian civil society as an extremely professional and well-organised and uh you know society, the civil society that and and and non-profit sector that can very well handle and manage uh funding flows.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

And and I would presume, I guess, it it would be a challenge to get figures on it by its very nature, but that funding that's coming more from the Ukrainian diaspora might well be going, I mean, not not even into kind of registered NGOs, but into much smaller kind of informal groups or going between family members and that kind of thing, and then finding its way in as as kind of diaspora funding tends to do. But it's it then it becomes very difficult to track with any accuracy.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Absolutely. I think uh there is still a lot of person-to-person giving that is going on, uh, whether it's a diaspora, whether it's uh principal of foundation, and or actually a Ukrainian citizen. So this person-to-person-to-person giving is probably uh even more catalytic and bigger than the classic funding flows in Ukraine. Um so it's um uh but yes, again, this is very difficult to track. So I I don't see data coming in on this, and you know, especially at the start, the priorities were different. So if the research comes out, usually it's a needs analysis, and not very often it's a snapshot of uh of the current flows.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

And one thing linked to that that was I remember sort of early on in the war was highlighted as a trend and was really I found fascinating because it raised some really interesting questions about where we draw the boundaries of philanthropy, was that there was fundraising going on within Ukraine, often by sort of informal groups, but where they were making it clear that the the greatest need that they had at that point was essentially for kind of military equipment to fight the war. And this obviously they I mean there was a kind of even the phrase I think lethal aid, which I hadn't heard up until that point was created to sort of explain this. And it raised a really interesting question in that it kind of felt difficult to fit that into our understanding of what we would think of traditionally as philanthropy. But then on the other hand, if that's genuinely where we were being told that the greatest need was on the ground by the people who know best, then if you want to meet needs, that's the best thing to fund. Is that something that's kind of continued as a trend alongside philanthropic funding for more sort of traditional humanitarian uh services as well?

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Definitely, definitely, yes. And uh, you know, still if you ask me as a Ukrainian what is the greatest need that we have, my answer will always be to protect lives. And uh unfortunately, I mean, this is a daily reality that that uh that is happening until now, five years into this war. And so, how do you do that? You know, it's uh and and and what do you need to do to make that happen? It will always like it's as long as this this this active warfare is going on, this will always be uh the priority. And so this uh culture of uh donations, which also um in 2022 in Ukraine we saw a huge growth in that, in in the people just giving. I mean, that the donation is uh such an integral part of a life of a Ukrainian right now, it's like a breakfast. So you have uh a possibility and a call and uh I don't know, an opportunity to donate literally everywhere you go in Ukraine. Uh, and on top of that, it's so uh like the user experience of that is so well designed, uh, so that it's actually extremely easy to do it. You are able to uh, you know, create like a jar uh in your bank account and then share it with friends on WhatsApp, on Telegram. People are putting money, you see how the money grows, you get the report of what was bought. It's like a journey that is you know thought through from the start to the end. There is different raffles that are going on. So, you know, people are saying like you can win this if you donate this and this and this, and and so like this whole donation uh aspect of cultural existence is is massive, it's huge. And also here I saw a number by one of the digital banks that we have in Ukraine that since 2022 it was approximately three billion euros of donations within the country, like by Ukrainians that have gone through there, and this is only one like bank that does, so it's huge, but those donations that are happening they are mainly uh towards the security and defense uh causes within the country. And they are also very much driven by the daily reality, by the empathy, by personal loss, and everything that comes into you know, kind of the daily, the daily life within the war. So it's it's massive. And yeah, I mean it I I do think it does like what you said, it can exist alongside one another. So there is the more traditional funding, and of course, there is uh any topic you name, there is going to be a need, like if it's veterans or education or uh, you know, women or health or it really anything you name, this this will be a great need and an absolute priority for someone to give money. But um uh I do know that a lot of foundations, especially more private foundations, they also um do support uh support in the direction of security and defense. But here it's also interesting to understand that in Ukraine this line between the civil society and military is also uh more blurry. So civil society is very much involved in the military life and in the in the you know in the thinking, and it's um you can build drones in the morning, uh, and then you know you can run an NGO like in the afternoon. And um, it really aligns to me with this whole of society of approach that especially the Nordic Baltic aid is is is really increasingly looking into, saying that you know the security and defense, it cannot only rely on military. There has to be a civil society who's also contributing to the government. So it has to be this triangle that if one is failing, the other one can step in and uh and kind of push it in. So the military is not its own separate unit that now all of a sudden dictates the rules, but it stays in constant exchange with civil society and in dialogue, you know, understanding what the needs are, what the trends are, where you know, it's so they can um watch each other, keep an eye on each other, or yeah. So this is this is very interesting. This uh civic military cooperation that is um developing in Ukraine right now is uh also something unique. At least I I've never seen any research or or uh historical reference to that to this extent. Um many of the military units they have their own NGOs uh that you know manage this donation, private giving, that advocate for the unit, that translate the work of the unit, you know, communicate on their behalf. Some of the uh biggest Ukrainian NGOs, like come back alive, uh, for example. There is cases where um some governmental budgets towards uh security and defense were given through that nonprofit. Um, because you know it was it was faster and more efficient, and there was a very good due diligence system in place and uh and reporting and like extremely transparent. Um so it's this is also something that is um that is emerging in in Ukraine.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Yeah, it's so interesting. That's absolutely fascinating additional uh context. Um another thing I wanted to ask actually is um you were talking quite a bit in the context of foundations about the the sort of direct support that they're funding through their work. Are there also sort of alongside that foundations that are trying to do more kind of upstream influencing uh of governments as well, elsewhere, to try and get more money into Ukraine that way? Because obviously, I mean, as ever with philanthropy, there's a scale question where philanthropy can do a lot, but actually, when you start to look at where it could have the most impact, often that is in trying to shift governmental uh flows of money. Are there organizations that you're aware of that are doing that as well?

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Yes, yes, definitely. Definitely it's uh it is one of the priorities for uh some of the foundations, even within our network. And I think it's also important to mention that you know it's that the messaging there is not like give money to Ukraine, support Ukraine. But the core messaging is there, is that there are values and the norms, uh, the norms of you know human rights, of sovereignty that are being challenged on the territory of Ukraine. So what what are we, you know, what are we doing about this? Like what do we um what do we support? Uh and uh it's also this question of you know kind of what has to be preserved, and and and I think in in that sense the funding is not only this flow of support, but it's also something that communicates. Look, we care about uh human rights, we care about the fact that we want to live in the world where where one country can't say simply, you know, we want to invade another country and challenge that sovereignty of the of the state. And so that's the reason that we are that we're there, that's the reason that we fund there and support there. Um so I think it's it's really it's really a lot more complex than just saying, you know, come fund in Ukraine or look into Ukraine or you know, don't um don't forget Ukraine. But it's it's to me, it's really a border right now between democracy uh and between you know autocratic regime. This is where the fight happens, not only for Ukrainians, but I think for the rest of Europe at least. I it's important to be clear about your stance on that. Like, you know, is is this something that you want to uh you want to support in in withstanding and protecting? Um so this is more of the of the advocacy work that I see that is being done or is that is driving uh driving some of the foundations and philanthropies.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

That's really interesting. Um I wanted to ask a little bit actually about some of the the sort of challenges that come for organizations or I guess individual donors who are funding in Ukraine. Um and first about the practical challenges in terms of getting money into Ukraine. I mean, there there are always challenges when you're giving across borders, whether that's you know the sort of due diligence that you need to do or the financial infrastructure. And I would assume you know there were some of those in Ukraine. Is that still the case? Or, you know, have efforts been made to try and reduce those those barriers and kind of how have they been doing that to make it as easy as possible for those donations to get where they need to get to?

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Yeah, so I from my point of view, Ukrainians really have done everything to make it as easy, as transparent as possible. Uh, and it isn't hard to find in Ukraine. From a technical point of view, it's it's you know, it's uh you it's it's quite easy to do that. So I think the challenge that I encounter the most, uh, especially from the foundations who have not had previous experience in Ukraine or haven't traveled or you know don't have that much of the context is really this question of uh of you know trust, the question of due diligence, and the question of okay, if we give, how can we be certain that it goes where we give? But once some form of relationship has been built, once you know they've encountered, they met some partners, they uh they were able to visit, they see how things are set up on the ground, um, usually that really uh mitigates kind of the question of yes. And also uh internally, I think the networks are set up really, really well. So even if you give uh you know to an organization that is based in the western of uh Ukraine, but um you intend to get this funding closer towards the front line, internally this is this is manageable and done really well.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

And then the other thing I wanted to ask in terms of challenges, I guess there are challenges going the other way, not so much in terms of you know putting the money into Ukraine, but for those organizations or those individuals who are funding in Ukraine and are kind of openly known to be doing that, are there any challenges that come with that in terms of opening themselves up to criticism or you know, or sort of political attack, or even, you know, obviously Russia is in the position of wanting to take reprisals against other governments that are known to be supporting Ukraine. Is that also a potential risk for funders and what do they do to mitigate against that?

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Uh I personally have not encountered that. Uh I also don't have knowledge uh about foundations who engage in Ukraine that have seen this risk. I uh there is you know quite a lot of um hacking attempts and digital uh kind of activity that I see going on with our communication and uh and so on. So this is something we just need to be mindful of and uh you know and understand uh how to uh how to secure the data and you know and and and Work properly, but openly I've uh I've not encountered. Um, so in my knowledge, I really am not able to answer this question. There is a uh foreign agent law that Russia has in place, obviously, and uh I do imagine that you know quite a few foundations who are very vocal about being in Ukraine might be on that foreign agent law. What uh that also means is that most likely uh some people related to that work will not be able to cross the border into Russia and uh Belarus. But beyond that, um within Europe and North America where um my focus is mostly is uh mostly is right now, I don't see that open aggression uh towards uh towards that stand or that work.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

That's really yeah, really reassuring to hear, actually. And then uh another thing I wanted to ask, which picks up on something that you were saying before about the the kind of innovation that's taken place uh in and around fundraising. And it links also to something that you said at the Philea forum that really stuck with me, which is around actually how much uh those of us in the rest of the world, in Europe and and and the UK and the US and beyond could actually learn from the experiences and what Ukrainians and Ukrainian civil society has done in a time of crisis, because often it is in time of crisis that people do innovative things and kind of you know learn, and and in terms of practicalities like fundraising, but also I remember you saying in terms of how we think about things like resilience, which is something that a lot of organizations everywhere are thinking about at the moment in the context of sort of polycrisis, how do we make organizations more resilient? I think you made the point from the stage at Philea that you know, if you want to see what civil society resilience looks like, you could do much worse than than look to Ukraine, where organizations are having to learn all this stuff very quickly. Maybe you could just say a bit about you know what you think are some of the the kind of lessons that all the rest of us could potentially be learning from how civil society in Ukraine is is adapting and responding.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

I think there is a lot to name for sure, and resilience would indeed be my first point here as well. Uh but you know, the more I see uh talk and I think now trend also using resilience, making it a part of the strategy, the less I'm convinced that this is something that one can learn. And uh we've been uh doing uh a lot of civil society in Ukraine has been, you know, saying, okay, like look at us, learn from us. There is things that we've done and uh and and had to adapt that uh can be used elsewhere. But lately I'm really starting to wonder if learning is possible without having the experience that Ukrainians have. I wonder what you think about this, because I feel it's so uh, you know, I can explain and I can try to share the way that things look day to day, but but I think there's really only a limit to how it's possible to uh comprehend that or or adapt that to the reality that is so different, luckily, is very different from what Ukrainians have to daily, uh daily endure and go through. Um, do you have any thoughts on this learning?

SPEAKER_00 47:14

I mean, I I would I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense and I I I thought something similar. I suppose people who are sort of experts in resilience might say there are skills that you can learn in that will kind of position you to be more resilient when crisis hits, but it always seems to me that at an individual level you don't really know how resilient you are until called upon to deal with something very difficult, either in your personal life or kind of you know at a at a larger macro level. And I I suspect that's the case for civil society organizations. You can, you know, talk and do as many workshops as you like about being a resilient organization, but it's only when you're forced to actually deal with some of the kind of challenges that Ukrainian civil society organizations have to face that you will genuinely know what it means to be resilient. Um so yeah, I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

And I think you know, I I um grew up in western Ukraine and uh I was born in uh early 90s, so just when the independence happened, uh, and uh we were quite poor, so we uh had to uh really uh you know, if we had potatoes and our neighbors had milk, then you exchange that. So you know who has what, and you are kind of uh in a constant uh, you know, community relationship building uh communication with others. Like you need others to be able to move forward and then rely on others. And I think uh this is also very much how Ukraine developed. Uh, it is this networked democracy that kept happening throughout and throughout. It wasn't so much that you know you have a I don't know, legal system for civil society, or in general, there is a lot of uh security within the government, and you can you know rely and go your day-to-day life. You had to do things despite the government. Uh, you know, you you always like they have to be creative, you need to find out where things are, who to call, who knows who, and how it works. And I think it's a skill that we also um had to develop in order to develop as a nation. Um, and for me, it's also a very big part of why this you know resilience right now is possible and why this endurance is possible is exactly because of the speed of communication, of this a little bit of chaos, I think, from outside, people can come in and they can't really quite disentangle why one person has, you know, these three positions and uh it's organizationally not so clean, but it actually is really helpful because you you you know you have these communication flows and you have this kind of codependency where it's it's in a constant cycle that that you're able to you know very quickly respond and react. You know who to call, you know where to find someone. And that's something living in the Netherlands now. I uh think about because I feel so detached in in uh in a way. It's a very individualistic society, so even you know, with acquaintances and so on, you see each other once a week, but once a month sometimes, but uh you're not uh like a part of each other's life to the extent that that you are. But there are a few, I mean it's honestly the the one thing that I just want to encourage anyone who wants to learn something about resilience is to come to Ukraine. And you can really travel now, especially in the West. It's you know it's quite it's it's it's quite safe if if you know you wanna understand more how it works and you need help with a security briefing. I'm more than happy to arrange that. But spend uh a day or two with a counterpart to your topic or your theme in Ukraine, and I think you will really be able to understand even questions that you maybe didn't think you had about uh about a certain topic. So it's it's it's probably one of the one of the invitations that I think is the the easiest to learn about um or at least experience it and understand it a little bit better. Yes, and then the maybe just one more thing about resilience because I really feel it's uh positioned as something very heroic in um in society and very like it's it's it's praised and and it it's good. I mean it it takes a lot of courage to be resilient and it takes a lot of work, but sometimes I feel it covers up the the the fact that Ukrainians are really not doing so well. You know, while very resilient, it is the first year of war and people are tired. It's um it's piling up and we really do need support, like we really do need backup, even you know, within this. So I also am a little bit nervous with the narrative of resilience going out because it sort of makes this or creates sometimes an image that you know it's all okay. Like there is a bombing, but they've got it, you know, they they've got it. Um but I really think it's um yeah, it it's a very difficult time, especially now heading into this winter. So yeah, a lot of a lot of concerns around that. So uh well uh resilience is uh is you know a very admirable skill. It's not uh drone proof, unfortunately, and not bulletproof either.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

And and that I mean it's really, really interesting. I think what you were saying there about resilience and and individualism really struck me as well. Because I think often when we talk about resilience you know here in the UK and others around civil society, it is too often, you know, at the level of individual organisations. And and seeing from what you were saying, it sort of struck me maybe that's meaningless. You know, it doesn't mean anything to say you're resilient unless you're talking uh about the connections that as an individual you have with others and within a community, and you know, maybe the same goes for organisations. I just wanted to pick up on oh, I want to let you go because it we're coming to time and it's been absolutely fascinating. But just before you do, to just to finish off what you were saying there at the end, um obviously there are still enormous challenges in Ukraine. I mean, from your point of view, what would you like to see happen in terms of the response from philanthropy, from foundations, uh, you know, elsewhere in the world and from donors? What what is kind of most needed that isn't currently happening?

SPEAKER_02 53:21

I think this might be also something I mentioned at the Philea, but I see Ukraine increasingly treated as one of the topics on the list. So it's you know, there is we're engaging human rights and democracy and then Ukraine, education, and so on. My invitation is to really uh see Ukraine as human rights, as democracy, as education. And my call is not uh for everyone to now start funding in Ukraine. My call is in the strategic area of where you're working, where you are involved. Look into Ukraine, come visit, find a Ukrainian to talk to, like be curious about it. Keep the pools on beyond the news, especially within philanthropy, especially within the business of doing good, you know, especially of the within the support chains and and and aiming to make the world a better place. Keep Ukraine in the strategic lens uh of of your questions and your thinking. And uh I'll be so happy to share connections, ideas with anyone who would like to hear more about this. Uh, this is probably my my call at this moment.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

And that's yeah, I think a really clear thing that people can do if they've listened to this and and want to get involved or to take action. And I'll put links in the show notes to places where people can find out more and find you and get in touch. Um just remain to say thanks ever so much, Monica, for coming on. It's been absolutely fascinating. I think a really, really interesting conversation. I've really, really enjoyed it. Um, yeah, definitely wish you all the best with your work and you know hope that we can catch up again at some point and sort of see how things have developed, hopefully, for the better.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

Thanks so much, Rodri. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Okay, well, my thanks again to Monica for finding the time to come on the podcast. Um, as I said, I thought that was really, really interesting, so I really uh enjoyed it and I hope you did too. Um I will put links in the show notes to places where you can find out more about the work of Foundations for Ukraine, uh also where you can get in touch with Monica if you want to take her up on her offer of going to Ukraine, kind of learning more uh about the work that's going on there, and also where you can find out a bit more about some of the context for philanthropy. Um I'll put some links in the show notes to some things that I've written that are relevant as well. Um, as ever, if you're interested in issues around philanthropy and civil society, do check out the website at whyphilanthropymatters.com. You can find all of the back episodes of this podcast there, lots of fascinating conversations with experts from all over the world. Uh you can find long form articles, you can find shorter form guides, you can find news updates, there's all kinds of stuff to dig through, so lots of content. Uh, you can also follow me on social media at LinkedIn, uh, lots of updates there. Um so if you want that, please find me there. You can find me on Blue Sky as well, but you'll be sitting around for quite a long time if you wait for me to say anything interesting, because I don't tend to broadcast that much on there. Um but if you've got ideas for topics we could cover on future podcasts or people I could talk to, do get in touch. You can find the contact details at the website. Uh, if you like the podcast and you think other people might like it, do give out a personal recommendation, or if you've got the time, leave us a nice review wherever you get your podcast that helps bump us up the algorithms. Other than that, it just remains to say thanks ever so much for listening, and I will see you next time. Bye.