SPEAKER_01 0:38

Hello, you're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast. This is the podcast where we try to put philanthropy in context. I'm your host, Rodery Davis, and this week I'm joined by Isaac Jones. Now, Isaac is the director of FirstGive, which is a charity based here in the UK, which works in schools trying to teach young people how to be better philanthropic citizens, and we'll talk a bit in a moment about what that means. So I sat down with Isaac not long ago to talk about what First Give does, how the organization came about, and what their program looks like. So how it actually works in schools, what the process is from the point of view of the children and young people who are taking part. We also talked more broadly about whether they actually use the word philanthropy and what they do and whether that was different when they were working in schools and talking to young people or when they're sort of out and about explaining their work and why that is and whether philanthropy is actually a helpful word. We talked about where the program sits within schools. Is it something that's kind of within the curriculum or is it extracurricular? And if it's in the curriculum, which bits of it, how does it fit in alongside academic subjects and then other things like citizenship? And we talked about what the aim of the programme is. You know, is it to teach kids about giving and being philanthropic, or is it kind of more broadly teaching them skills of civic participation and engagement, or even at an individual level, kind of skills around presentation and self-confidence, and what kind of balance uh does First Give put on those different things? We also talked about how the young people taking part make decisions. So, how do they choose which charities that they're going to put forward through this process to try and get uh support for and eventually um secure the grant of a of a thousand pounds that that comes at the end of the programme? Um and are there any constraints on what they can give to? Are they free to choose from pretty much anything, or are they kind of directed in certain ways? Um we also talked about what it means for the charities themselves. Do they value uh donations that come through this kind of means more because of the fact they know that sort of children, young people have gone through this process to choose them? Um, or you know, and does that then make it kind of worth more in some sense than uh a different donation of a similar amount? Um we also talked about what the ongoing relationship between the young people and the schools and the charities is after the program uh has ended. Um we also talked about what happens to those charities that don't win, uh, because not all of them can, uh, as everyone you're selecting winners, there have to be some losers. What happens to them and whether they still get benefits out of the program? Um and then finally, we also talked about sort of wider questions of the context that we're working in at the moment around kind of polarization and division um and the general state of the world, and whether a programme like First Gives can actually play a role in overcoming some of those elements, particularly at a kind of local level, by bringing people together and kind of giving them opportunities to engage um with each other, uh, and also kind of giving young people particularly a sense of agency and voice and of being listened to that can maybe make them feel a bit better about the state of the world. Um so without further ado, let's go into the conversation. I really enjoyed this one. Uh, I hope you will too. And I'll be back at the end for the usual little bit of housekeeping. Okay, great. Well, I'm here with Isaac Jones. Hi there, Isaac. Hi, Rodri, how are you doing? I'm really good, thank you. Um, yeah, well, great to have you on the podcast. Looking forward to this chat. So, yeah, as everybody's listened to the intro will know um you work for FirstGive. Maybe the best place to start is just to say a bit more about what FirstGive actually is, how the organization came about, and what you guys do.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, absolutely. So um thanks very much for having me on. Um it's it's always great to have an opportunity to talk a bit about what we do at FirstGive. I suppose I would say we exist to unlock the uh potential of young people as philanthropic citizens. Um, so we've been around since 2014. We were founded by um Sir Trevor Pears of the Pears Foundation and uh Sinclair Peacham, who's uh an industry leader, was uh one of the co-founders of Pret. Um and I think sort of their inspiration when they founded the organization was really driven by the idea that actually a more generous society is a stronger society, and they wanted to create opportunities for um young people to sort of look up, see the world around them, and and realise their role in in their community and what they can do to make a difference. And I suppose that's sort of developed over the years, and we we we work in partnership with schools um to give young people the opportunity to reflect on the issues that are affecting their community, uh to take action, to do something about it, and and ultimately um compete in. We have we have a competition in each of the first good programs that we run, um, where one uh of the classes in a year group will have the chance to win a grant of a thousand pounds for a charity that they've chosen to support through the program. So it's a sort of really practical, real-life uh program where young people are developing um not just skills, but also uh an identity as a as a philanthropic citizen.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Yeah, and I want to, I mean, I want to come on to kind of how it works in practice and the aims of it and sort of what it looks like from the point of view of the kids who are taking part. But actually, just in terms of that framing around philanthropic citizens, I'm I'm one of the bigger picture questions around all this is is always kind of I'm always interested about the word philanthropy and like whether it's actually helpful or whether it makes sense, and particularly in the context where you're talking to kids or to young people, do you find it's actually a sort of helpful term? Do they have any idea of what you're talking about? Do they start off not knowing or then sort of get their own idea of what it means? How does that play out?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think the word philanthropy is really difficult. And and actually you and I have had conversations about this in the past where where you know I've talked about my struggle with the implications of philanthropy and um and those implications of something that's quite conservative in that it is literally trying to conserve and retain existing structures um often of inequality, and and that actually it maintains some of the social issues that that are the result of that inequality. So that's kind of why I've used deliberately the phrase philanthropic citizenship rather than philanthropy. And actually, we we don't really use the language of philanthropy in conversations with young people. We we we we prefer to talk about um social action or uh giving or uh generosity. And I suppose when I talk about philanthropic citizenship, it's a phrase which um Dr. Ali Boddy uh uses a lot in her research. Um she's just done an evaluation of the First Give program, which has been really helpful. But it's it's a phrase that uh encompasses really what we're we're talking about, um, which is sort of a civic identity uh that involves uh the giving to charities, social action, volunteering, and being engaged in your local community and feeling like you have a role. So, yeah, I mean I definitely feel like using the language of philanthropy might be the wrong starting point, actually, for young people, because it's it's got so many implications that if you go down that road, I think you end up having conversations that are not that helpful when it's in creating what we're actually looking to create, which is this idea of a philanthropic identity. Yeah, and I and I think uh uh what's what's really critical is actually what we're talking about is learning through practice and not through sort of instruction. We're not we're not teaching them about philanthropy, uh we're giving them the structure and space for young people to themselves do something meaningful. Um so so the that sort of idea of philanthropic citizenship is actually learned through their participation. So, yeah, that's that that's where I would stand on the language of philanthropy and and my feelings about using that in in the school context, particularly.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Yeah, and I guess I guess the interesting there's an interesting question, I suppose, around that thing of, you know, does the language as it stands not particularly work? And I'd say in this case, absolutely, yeah, if you're going to talk to any sort of normal young person, they probably don't particularly know what you're talking about in terms of philanthropy. But then I guess is the longer term aim to move beyond that and use different language, or is it, as some people would say, to kind of reclaim the language? And it would be really interesting, kind of further down the line, whether those young people who've developed their own experience and views about social action and citizenship and the world of charities and kind of supporting them, that kind of thing would come to see themselves as philanthropists of a kind, but have you know have sort of formed their own ideas about that? I guess it'll be interesting to see whether these kinds of initiatives have that long-term impact.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah, I mean, I I think there's a difference as well, I think, with between the organization, how we talk with young people and in the context of the program and how we might talk more publicly. And and I think actually you're right, there's something about actually being more confident about using the language of philanthropy, and it's in our objects as a charity as well. So it talks about the you know, the um delivery of a philanthropy education program. So it's a conversation we've had a lot uh with with our board of trustees and with the staff team, and very few schools speak in the language of philanthropy, but we are in the business of philanthropy, and so actually, um, you know, in a very real sense, because we're giving away a thousand pounds at every school. So actually, young people are participating in genuine, you know, philanthropic activity beyond their own social action activities or fundraising that they do. So I think actually you're right, there's something about democratizing the idea of access to philanth philanthropy. Um, and and maybe maybe there's a sort of separate thing about how we talk about it in in the public sphere.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Yeah, absolutely. Um I want to there's a whole load of things I want to talk about um about kind of uh the overall aims of the program and sort of where that sits. But like maybe first uh a good thing to do would just be to give people an idea of what the program actually kind of looks like from the point of view of of somebody in a school participating in it. I mean, what what will they actually sort of do as they go through the program?

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Yeah, so we we work in partnership with secondary schools and we'll work with any year group from seven through to twelve. And uh so that's young people who are um uh just coming into secondary school all the way through to leaving um sixth form. And um we deliberately work with a whole year group, and that's a decision that we've made because we want to make sure we are providing these opportunities for as many young people as possible. It's delivered within curriculum time, whatever that might look like in the different schools that we work in. And the program structure is really well codified and quite strongly defined for schools so that it's quite easy to pick up and run with. We launch it with um a teacher training for all of the teachers who are going to be delivering the sessions in the classroom, helping them think about you know, moving to uh the role of a facilitator, I suppose, within the classroom rather than a sort of teacher specifically. And then uh we will go in, a member of our team will go in and launch the program to the students with an assembly uh and describe what they're going to be doing and explain that they're going to be taking part in this program, which will result in one of the classes winning a grant of a thousand pounds for a charity of their choice. And the lessons that they go through, which the teachers deliver in school, take them through a really clear process where they start by thinking about well, what are the issues that impact our community? And they'll have those discussions in their classroom. Um, they will uh decide on one issue in each class, and then they will do research into the local community and think about what charities are working in our area to tackle the issues that we've chosen to focus on. Each class chooses the charity and then they carry out some kind of social action to support that charity. And that might be, as I say, fundraising, it might be that they engage with an existing campaign. Um, and the idea is that hopefully that will get framed by the opportunity that they have to meet with a representative from the charity. So that real life element of the program comes in at that point where they get to meet a representative who comes into school or they have a video call with them and they hear about the work directly from people who are tackling the issue in the community themselves. And that can be quite a transformational moment, a real spark moment for the young people who are participating because so much of their schooling is about learning or about preparing for exams, and it's very academic. And so something where it's actually going to have an impact in the world can be quite a surprise, and a lot of them don't even believe it, even at that point, to be honest. And then what they will do is in groups, they will create presentations uh where they will advocate for their chosen class charity and they will report on what they've done as a class to support their charity or the cause. And one group from each class will come through to present at what we call the first gift final, and we want run a first gift final in every school that we partner with. So it's about 230 schools this academic year, and um we have an amazing event where we bring in people from outside of school, the charity representatives come in, we have a panel of judges made up of students from the school, um from a different year group, perhaps, uh, guests from outside of schools that might be civic leaders, it might be political leaders, it might be um business leaders or community members who sit on that panel as well. And we see each of the groups present about what they've done and why their charity should win a thousand pounds and celebrate the impact of the work that all of the young people have have done before announcing who wins that thousand pounds grant.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Hmm. Yeah, it's really interesting. There's loads I want to pick up on that. I guess I mean one nuts and bolts question, just to clarify, in terms of the the thousand pound grant that they get, is that kind of coming then from you? And is that money provided by funding partners that you have?

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Yeah, that's right. We're a we're a charity ourselves, and so we have all of the same challenges and uh struggles in terms of raising funds as everybody else does, but you know, we see ourselves as as um as playing a role in the strengthening of civic society, um, and we've got some fantastic um funding partners, um, including Peirce Foundation, who I mentioned, um, and uh Sinclair Beecham through his foundation uh funds us as well. Um, I won't list them all, but we have um some fantastic committed partners who um yeah who support us to be able to do that. And I suppose the great thing about what we're doing for funders is that there are lots of different angles that this can work for them. So if they're looking to distribute small grants to uh local causes, actually they can do that through young people doing the work for them in a way, like doing the due diligence and and and finding the charities who are who will really benefit from that £1,000. Or if the focus for the funder is on actually young people's confidence and um development of their skills and their role within society and responsibility to society, then that that meets that need as well. Um, or that sort of wider community connections and cohesion piece as well, which I think is is another piece that really works, uh, that the program really uh works to support.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yeah, that's really interesting because I think with all of these things, you can always frame them in different ways. And I've thought the same when I talk to people about kind of participatory grant making, there's kind of there's the the bit which is kind of is this just a tool to get money out? So you're sort of focused on the outcomes and this happens to be a good way of doing it, perhaps because you know it's kind of these people are more connected to their local area, or are you more interested in the process and the value that that brings to the participants? Do you do you find there like what's the balance between the funders that you've got involved in terms of where their interest lies? Is it always a bit of all of them, or are there some other I mean, I guess I'm most interested in in what you say about are there some who are kind of primarily interested in getting the money out and actually just think this is quite a practically interesting way to do it? Because that that sort of that in a way surprises me because I guess the focus for me would be on the the process and the idea of kind of the engagement of the kids. But actually, if somebody's just like, well, we were going to do grant making anyway, and this seems like a good way to do it, that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah, um maybe I'm maybe I'm being sort of slightly uh previous about I don't know. I think yes, I don't think any of our funders think in that way, but I suppose what is potentially um exciting for us is that there might be funders out there who are thinking about that. And and I think actually there's another organization called Youth and Philanthropy Initiative, which is where we sort of come from, really. So there was an initiative in Canada, and and I think for them that was that was perhaps a bigger part of the of the model um and the funding model that they had. And certainly, you know, we we yeah, I think it's I think it creates that opportunity to have funders who are interested in that. But of course, you also find there are a lot of funders who who will say they don't want specifically don't want to fund the thousand pounds because they don't want to fund grant making for other organizations. So yeah, it's it's a it's a a mixture, and I think the majority of the funders that we have at the moment, for them the process is more important, whether that be about communication and strengthening civic society, or whether that be about young people, their confidence, their skills and and things like that, um, is probably the the main bulk of our funding partners.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. And and just jump pick that, because it's sort of going back to the first principles on on the young people themselves. Like, is do you see the primary aim of the work that First Give is doing to basically get school kids to be more philanthropic or generous or kind of engaging more with charities? Or is it about teaching them a sort of wider skills of civic participation engagement that they can then go kind of go on and use in in you know later life? Or is it kind of on an individual level about some of the personal skills? Because presumably, and certainly from the stuff that I've read in your evaluation, the all of the things that they're going through in terms of kind of presentation and the research that they have to do have these benefits in terms of you know personal style and confidence and all this sort of stuff. Where do you place the emphasis between those things and the work that you do?

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Yeah, I mean, I think for us, our focus and our vision is of a more generous society where everyone's able to give their time, their money, or their skills to the things that they care about, the causes that they want to support. But realistically, I think all three of those things happen naturally as a result of that, that actually they all come under that banner of philanthropic citizenship and the benefits are manifold, you know. And actually, yes, young people, for some schools, for example, that we work with, they will say to us, the reason we're doing this is because of the RC element, because it creates a not just we're not just asking them to stand up and speak, but we're actually there's a reason to stand up and speak, and that makes the development of those RC skills more potent and more more real for the school and for the young people. And we, you know, we have conversations with schools where we talk about uh focus on the skills that they've developed in terms of leadership and how that will help them with their off with their sorry with their UKS applications and things like that. But but for us, the the the real central aim is is around philanthropic citizenship and and giving, hence the name, and the fact that there are so many happy additional outcomes as a result of this work, I think just speaks to why it's it's sort of a it's got a sort of multiplier effect, right? It's sort of it ripples out into lots of different areas, whether that be the additional benefits for young people, the additional benefits for the schools, the additional support and benefits for the charities that they're supporting.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and yeah, and I guess you can like, you know, people can always come to these things with different aims or kind of priorities, and actually that sort of works as long as they're all of those different things are kind of being being delivered through it. And I was gonna ask actually about the schools themselves. You sort of mentioned there that some of them come to it through the you know, RC, and I can imagine there's kind of other um uh motivations in different cases. In terms of the impact on the schools, what have you seen in terms of of whether it's it's kind of changed the way that they do things or think things or you know their role within the community?

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a number of ways that that partnering with FirstGive can can have an impact for schools and uh uh specifically, you know, particularly over the last 15 years, I think, you know, schools' role in society has sort of increased and they're being expected potentially to do a bit more than, you know, it's not just about the education of our children. And and I think there's a few ways that FirstGive supports that for schools and makes it easier in a world where so many things seem to be making things harder for teachers and for schools. So, on a practical level, 84% of teachers fed back recently that as a result of delivering the program, they actually felt more confident tackling complex or sensitive issues in the classroom and with young people, which I think is really important because we live in a world full of complex and challenging issues, and I think it's really important that we don't ignore them or we don't hide from them and we actually engage young people in conversations about those things. Um, but on a on a wider scale, that the I I think one of the main benefits of schools is actually the connections that the program inspires because those connections with charities are and with with other people from the community, as I mentioned, that we bring in for the final. You know, I think they're those connections play a really strong role in actually strengthening how the school where the school sits in the community and the role that it has in the community. And on the on the charity side of things, it creates a framework for young people to lead on those connections as well. So, first of all, the school becomes more aware of what are the issues that our young people care about, maybe what are the Issues that they're experiencing themselves as members of this community. But also it's just a really powerful way, I think, of schools building connections that are based on the priorities of their students rather than you know, rather than top-down approach to those connections. And it and it's in it sort of builds partnerships in a way that removes pressure from the teachers, but also increases that sort of authenticity of those partnerships. Because we and one of the things I I find is slightly frustrating and I always want to hear more about is like the sort of long-reaching impact of those partnerships. Because I know they happen and we hear anecdotally that, oh yeah, that oh no, that charity is now a school, you know, one of our school's charities that we support that they chose last year. Or I was at a final the other day where the charity stood up. They weren't even the winning charity, but they stood up and they said, Oh, well, we're going to be last year, our charity won the first gift grant at this school, and so we're creating a web page and we're going to interview the young people, and their voices are going to be on our website talking about why why what we're doing is important and how they won and what they've done to support us. And it, you know, and I think those things are really valuable for schools, just in terms of their positioning within the community as well and understanding the community they're serving.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Yeah, absolutely. I was going to ask, I'm maybe I'll come back to it afterwards, but just because you were talking there about the response of charities, I agree that sort of knowing what that leads to longer term. I'm also just really interested in the the way in which the charities that end up kind of being involved in the process, and particularly those that win the grants, perceive it. You know, do they do they basically do they kind of value it in a way more than an you know another grant of a thousand pounds that came from somewhere else because of the process that's been gone through to get there?

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question. The feedback we get, I'm always a bit nervous because I'm always like, oh, well, we want to make sure that we're not you know taking too much of their time for for what is a small grant. You know, it's not a big chunk of money. And obviously, if you're a really small charity, the thousand pounds is going to have much bigger impact than if you're a bigger charity. But actually, the feedback that we get from charities is that the participation just creates more visibility, it creates more awareness of what they're doing, not only with the young people in the school, but also with the family members of those young people. So we do something at all of the final events that we we run where we ask, has anybody learned something new today? And then we say and we talk about how if everybody in this room told somebody outside of this room about what you learned today, think about how the impact of that would grow. And I think you know it's such a simple point about awareness, but the charities seem to really value that and also value the relationships of the schools, which I was talking about a minute ago. You know, actually, on a really practical level, you've got community fundraisers out there desperately trying to engage with schools all the time. And so creating a way where you can you're not having to try and like dash the door down because it's it's notoriously difficult to engage with schools. So for charities to have a way in that is really meaningful and feels like it adds value to you know all parties, I think is it's very valuable for them.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Yeah, absolutely. Um I wanted to ask as well about the when the young people are making decisions, like what do you find in terms of how big a role personal experience plays in the choice of what they support? I mean, I I would presume if it's anything like sort of philanthropy written more broadly, it does play a big role because it tends to be that people tend have a reason to support something, and often that is a kind of personal experience or connection to the cause. Is that the case with young people? And also it's like I guess the follow up the additional bit is do you ever see that they kind of that brings you know challenges to be overcome? Because I guess talking about something when you are yourself affected by it, there's there's kind of you know, there's more personal risk to that in a way, and so actually you have to kind of open up that bit more. And do you see some of the young people going through a bit of that?

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yeah, I mean, I was uh while you were talking there, I was thinking, yeah, I mean, the thing is young people are just people who are younger. So of course the motivations for giving are going to be, you know, broadly, you know, broadly are going to correlate. And and definitely personal connections are a really strong motivator for young people. And I think in terms of what we see quite regularly, you know, we do one of the things that I think is really exciting that we see regularly in programs is when a young person does disclose something to the rest of their classmates. And contrary to what we might assume, what almost always happens is that class or that year group and that cohort will rally around that young person and will support them. So like there's a an example of this at a final I went to once where a young person who was actually a refugee who'd not long arrived in the country, um, obviously English was their second language. And at the final event, not just within the classroom environment, but at the final event, they stood up and they said something and they just said a couple of sentences about their experience. But the class had chosen a refugee charity as a result of that young person being in their class and being one of their peers. And when this young person stood up on stage and spoke very, very briefly about their experience, the whole hall, which was full of the year group, just erupted in applause and support. And I think you know, it's it for me that speaks a bit to the values perception gap. And I don't know if you've heard about this research that Global Action Plan did a few years ago, which kind of talks about um the fact that the majority of the children believe that themselves to hold sort of compassionate values, but they wrongly believe that others don't. And the thing is that the consequence of that is that if you think that others don't share those values, you don't act on them. So, in this kind of program where we are creating uh an experience that allows them to see other classmates demonstrating their compassionate values, that can have a domino effect. And I think that experience is really critical in kind of unleashing what I think is an innate generosity in most human beings. Um, and that actually you you unleash that generosity or that compassion. And and I that to me feels quite potentially quite transformational on a wider societal scale, not just you know, with the individual young people. Because we can talk about the benefits for individual young people, but for me, the thing that's really exciting is when you have moments like that that just sort of, you know, if you can impact that, I think you can have a much bigger societal impact.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Yeah, and particularly at this moment in time, and actually hearing stories about how fundamentally people are generally good and particularly younger people. I mean, it I'm sort of stopped myself slightly tearing up, which is like I'm I'm getting to that age anyway, but also just you know, the backdrop at the moment is just so relentlessly, you know, kind of opposed to that. So actually, I found this as well when I sat in on sort of participatory grant making meetings, just a reminder that like fundamentally most people are sort of decent and want to do the right thing and care and that kind of thing is really important, I think.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yeah, I couldn't agree with that more. And I think you know, we've been talking a lot about polarization at first give over the last you know couple of years, as I think everybody in civil society has. And and what were one of the things that I thought was really exciting that came out of this evaluation that I mentioned earlier is that that actually democratizing philanthropy in this way and cultivating this kind of philanthropic citizenship, it builds empathy, it builds connections, it allows for deliberation and shared decision making. And actually, there was a phrase in the evaluation which which I thought was really exciting, where it's it they they wrote and that this kind of work is an antidote to divisive rhetoric. And and I suppose, you know, if I'm honest, when I started at First Give, it felt like it was a nice thing to do. It was like, oh, this is nice, like we get young people to do nice things, and that's really easy to see it in that way. But I think the more I've been here and the more I've seen the impact, and the more I've more we've been able to draw up and connect actually what what's the wider impact, what's the longer term impact of this. For me, you know, that's just we need more people to have these kinds of experiences because uh it isn't sort of that traditional passive transactional experience of giving that you get in school, but it's actually just it's meaningful engagement and and yeah, making that accessible to more people, I think can have a really powerful impact in a wider way.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

And I I think that's I mean, I think this at the moment, in terms of things like um youth clubs, that like there's certain bits of work that maybe 10 or 20 years ago would have seemed like people would have been like, it's really good in and of itself, but it's quite, you know, sort of safe and soft and just nice. And actually, now in a way, that's the kind of cutting edge of trying to address issues around polarisation and division in society, because I think people are like, actually, what we need to be doing is finding and funding the spaces that allow people to engage on a kind of meaningful human level, and and also you know, not in a way where it's kind of you've got to take the rough with the smooth and and realize that you know you disagree with some people, but you can do that in ways where you can still all kind of work together. Um so I think it's really interesting to emphasize that that kind of aspect of these kinds of programmes.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah, and I couldn't agree more about the youth work and and spaces for young people. I think that's so critical because you know you you change people's positions or opinions with through relationships, that's the only way to do it. Um so connections and relationships are the way that you that you can we can make a change to this sort of situation that we find ourselves in.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um I just wanted to ask as well, in terms of so I mean, one thing was just unclear, the in the program you've got kind of individual classes within a year kind of um choosing uh an organization that they're going to support. Within that bit, I'm really interested in kind of whether you have any sense of what kind of decision making they use, because obviously, even within a group, um obviously to choose one thing then requires everybody to sort of decide is it kind of brutal majoritarian, you know, decision making, is it more kind of consensus-based? And does that sort of emerge organically or are they kind of told how they should make decisions?

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yeah, these are some of the things that we grapple with a lot, you know, when we're doing redesigns or tweaks of the program. The program is really well structured and really codified for for schools to pick up and deliver in as easy and a straightforward way as possible. So there's lots of flexibility within how how and where it gets delivered by different schools because they all work in different contexts. But it is really um structured and they're given lesson plans and a course book for every student. And what we encourage schools to do is to go through a sort of process of what we've been terming deliberative democracy, I suppose, which is you know that we're asking them to start from a position of right, okay, we've got these charities. We're now going to have, you know, you're gonna vote by moving somewhere in the classroom. Um, and then you're each going to say why you think this is the best way to do it, this is the best choice for you for your class, and then you're gonna have a chance to move. So you're almost caucusing, right? And um, that for me is is one of the most interesting ways of doing it. Um, and we talk about that a little bit um with teachers when we're doing our training with them. But the reality is I know that different schools will work in different ways, different teachers will have had more or less time to engage with our resources and with the training and might just go, okay, we're gonna just make a decision here and we're gonna do an up and down vote. My preference would be that they use that sort of more deliberative way because I think it will lead to more engagement from young people. And we do ask young people at the end of the programme, you know, did you have a choice? Did you feel like you had a choice? And I think it's about it's about 79%, 80% of young people in the latest round of surveys that we did who said, yes, I felt like we had a choice of the of the charity that we were selecting. I would I'd love that to be 100% because I there's also a really when you look at the impact, so what students say about their intention to do more social action in the future or the skills that they've developed or their enjoyment of the program, even, and you cut that against the ones who say they had a choice and the ones who didn't, there's a big jump in the impact. So, yes, so we would love for more schools to engage in that sort of more deliberative process. But I suppose over the whole thing, the whole process of the of the um program, there are various moments of deliberation that happen at a classroom level or at a year group level, or then at in the final at that level when we've got guests coming in and uh and helping to make the decision about the check.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yeah, absolutely. And one other thing I wanted to ask is about whether there are any constraints on what participate uh participants can choose. I mean, do you have to kind of specify that it's only registered charities, or can there be other types of organizations, or is it kind of within a particular geography? And I guess do you have you had any instances where groups have sort of wanted to go in one direction and that's caused issues for any reason, either because it's sort of seen as too political or something like that, just because obviously if you give people free choice, there's a whole world of civil society organizations out there and not not every single one kind of is everybody's cup of tea, quite rightly so. But within this kind of group dynamic, I wonder whether that's ever been something that the groups have had to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Yeah, we give them instructions to the schools about um that that the grants are the the only organizations eligible for grant uh charities, registered charities. Uh so um they go through it, there's actually a process in the course book that takes them through a step-by-step process of locating charities within their local community, that's the ideal, and then checking on the charity commission website to see that they are a registered charity before they get selected by the class. What we the advice we give to schools is look, it's easier if they're local on a practical level because you actually are much more likely to get somebody from a local charity to come and see your students than someone from a big national charity. And we we would include within that sort of organization to a franchise, you know, big um, you know, McMillan have local uh local charities or Mind have local branches. So um, and then the other thing we say is it should be focused on uh people in your local community. So uh we avoid animal charities and focus in on the because we what we start from is the point of view of like what are the issues affecting people in your community before we get on to thinking about the charities that we're going to research. So we start with issues and we think about how issues are connected, there they go through a process of reflecting on, well, who's responsible for these issues? And and we we ask them about, you know, are individuals responsible for this, are the government responsible for this, are faith groups responsible for this, are schools responsible for this, you know, what who is it that's actually responsible for tackling these problems? And we go through a process of going, well, for the purposes of this program, you will be connecting with charities who are set up to tackle these issues in your community, and then the next lesson moves on to thinking about well, how do we research and find those charities in our in our community that they want to select? So we get we obviously there are moments where young people will go, actually, we do want to support this national charity, and they might have really good reasons for that. And for me, the choice and the agency that you have within the program as a young person is such a critical part of whether or not you're going to engage that I would usually say that it outweighs whether or not it's a local or national charity, and I would we would advise schools to say actually, yeah, just go go with their choice if it's if it's what they really want to, like you know, it was a personal connection. So we had a young person who um suffered from a very rare medical condition, for example, and the class wanted to support the charity tackling that as their issue. And I was like, of course, why would we restrict that? So yeah, I mean, uh and I'm in terms of the other challenges, obviously, um, if an organization is not, we do sometimes get situations where organizations aren't actually registered with the charity commission, but they're a really valuable and worthwhile project. We have various funding relationships where there are specific restrictions on us, giving out the grants, for example. So we will will engage with schools on a on a one-to-one basis with those conversations when as and when they come up. And one of the things that we we do is make sure that we build partnerships with the schools, not just selling them something, but actually we we are working with them so they have a contact at first give who we talk to them throughout the program and are available at any point to answer those kinds of questions and deal with those little things that come up.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Yeah. And I I mean, I guess you know, at the end of the day, it's not that limiting a constraint to have to restrict yourself to registered charities. There are quite quite a lot of them. Yeah. Um, I'm really interested in what you were saying there about the um the kind of starting from the point of conversations about what the needs are in the local area and whose responsibility those are. I mean, I would be absolutely fascinated to hear what young people had to say about that. Because I think what I found when I've sat in on sort of participatory things before is actually just listening to people who don't do this stuff day in, day out grapple with questions of like what is the role of charity and what's the responsibility of the state? It's so interesting because it's people very quickly unpick that stuff and are able to think about it in a very sophisticated way. Do you do you have any sort of sense, or is there any stuff that you've captured in in some of your um the work that you've done kind of uh assessing the program? What what young people's view of charities is? Do they have a kind of pre-conceived notion of what a charity is and what it does? And does that change over the course of of going through the kind of learning about local the work of charities in their area?

SPEAKER_00 39:28

I mean, I I I think you're right. I think you could develop an entire programme on that, couldn't you? You could you could spend you know weeks digging into who's responsible for tackling these problems, and and obviously um that might lead you to some different conclusions to the than the ones that we are guiding them through on the programme, um, to be honest. But um we we probably haven't done as much as I would quite like to do on this. So we don't really have that many insights. We because the teachers deliver this lesson, and that's one discrete activity within a single lesson where they're also you know doing they're being introduced to the concepts of social issues. So it I suppose you probably will see very different levels of conversation because we work with year seven students all the way through to year 12. So once you're in year 12, and this is where the program weirdly adapts to the context very well. You know, you're gonna have much more in-depth conversations at that stage, as you say, unpicking some of those challenges than than you might do in year seven, where where we that might feel more like a just a transition to we're gonna work with charities. Um, I'd be really interested to do a bit more on that. I'll be honest, I can't say with any certainty very much about sort of perceptions of charities. The only thing I would say is that what we do know is young people when you t when you ask them about charities, they just assume that everyone who works for a charity is a volunteer and they basically think about charity shops. That's really all they think of. So so we do, you know, one of the things that schools appreciate about the program and and some of the other programs that we run is is it creates a space to talk about you know careers in the third sector, which is something that for most young people is just they don't even realise it exists, and and why should they? So it can be quite a good opportunity to kind of talk about, you know, maybe you want to work in this space, um, which is quite interesting, I think.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

I think it is, and and to be honest, I don't, you know, in a way I'd be at pains to say that I don't think young people are any less clued up on the charity sector than the vast majority of the public, which is quite rightly people don't really they might know about charities that they support, but I, you know, the perception, as you say, that charities are entirely staffed by volunteers and largely it's about charity shops is pretty widespread. And and certainly I know when I've spoken to people who are involved at more of a kind of university level around experiential philanthropy courses, so sort of a bit similar to what you guys are doing, but you know, giving students there um in that context the opportunity to kind of give money away. One of the things they find is that people you have that realization of, oh, right, oh, you can actually, you know, this is a career, you can get paid and have a job in this, is they had no idea, and that's obviously at a university level where they're probably thinking about that stuff um a lot more. So yeah, I think that is that is really interesting, and to kind of develop and cultivate that understanding earlier is um, yeah, I think really valuable. Uh one thing that I wanted to ask, actually, um, what was it? Oh, yeah, it was just a practical thing, actually, because I was gonna ask it earlier, but you you kind of almost touched on it again there. You mentioned that the work that um the program uh tends to be kind of within the curriculum, just in a sort of nuts and bolts way, where does it sit in terms of the school to do it? Is it kind of part of the citizenship curriculum for schools, or is it kind of you know enrichment, or do they do it within the framework of you know politics or something? How do how does it work?

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Well, I mean, really all of the above. Like it depends on the school context and what they're looking for. And what we've done is we've developed a really full uh curriculum links document which connects elements of the program and how it supports different parts of both the curriculum in England and also the curriculum in Wales, because obviously education is is devolved. Um, I mean, uh in some ways it's extraordinary how many different areas, both subject areas and sort of statutory requirements, um, it it will support schools to deliver. Um, so you might find that the school are delivering it in, as you say, their citizenship lessons, and they have a discrete weekly citizenship lesson for every student in the school and it fits into one module of that of that learning uh scheme of learning. Or it might be that they run it through uh what are called drop-down days, where they collapse the timetable of the day and everyone comes off timetable, and we spend a whole day working on the first half of the program and the second half of the program then is delivered in in their tutor times, for example. So it gives the tutor time a bit more of a meaningful because they'll often have sort of 25 minute time with their tutors, which sometimes it's like just reduced to notices and everybody sit down and we're gonna do something that I've got off, you know, some uh online resource place. Whereas this gives it a real purpose and a real meaning, and it's it builds connections also between the tutor and their their. Students as well. So it can fit in lots of different places depending on the school's context. It also can fit in like English. So because of the RC element and having to develop an argument, and they might focus in a bit more on that and give more time over to the presentation skills element of it. But yeah, it can sit in different subject areas like RE or even in geography or um citizenship or PSHE. There's lots of different areas where it where it can go and can meet different uh different requirements that they're they're looking to meet.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

Yeah, absolutely. Um a couple more questions uh before I let you go because I'm gonna end up taking up far too much of your time. Um I'm just gonna jump around a little bit here. One one that occurred to me, I was really interested in, I guess, in like this is a wider question about any form of grant making, which is essentially, you know, you're always having to for every organization that you say yes to, there's probably multiple organizations that you say no to. And so there's all of these organizations that are probably really good and where the work could be funded, but just don't happen to be in this case. And then there's always a question about well, what do you do with that knowledge or the kind of connections with those organizations? Do you do you find in the program kind of the organizations that don't actually win and don't end up getting the grants? Does that kind of do you try to do anything with them or is there any kind of do the schools themselves continue those relationships as well? So that it's not just necessarily about the organizations that happen to win the grant in that particular instance?

SPEAKER_00 45:29

Yeah, I think that's a good question. I mean, we I I think I would, again, it's something I'd really love to do, do more on in a way. Like we we sort of act as a conduit creating the connection, but it's the school and sometimes the young people themselves who contact the charities and have the relationship with the charities and quite often not ours. And we've we always we come back to this conversation quite a lot at first gear. We're a small team, so we're uh we're delivering you know 230 programs across the country this year on a team of 10, plus we have uh or 12 this year, I think, actually. And we've got um freelance facilitators who are supporting some of that work as well. But I would love to do more on engaging with the charities, and we do occasionally sort of pull charities together for some focus groups to get some feedback and reflections. Quite often the ones we engage with are the ones who have one because we need their contact details in order to be able to give them the grant, uh, because we process that. Whereas the others we we quite often don't see. So, this is where one of the new program initiatives that we've been piloting over the last few years is a is a discrete drop-down day program called First Give One Day, where young people will have an at the beginning of the day will be a simulated charity that they are running. So they're they're having to raise money by completing different tasks, and then different circumstances arise white which make it difficult to deliver all of the work you want to deliver and all of that sort of stuff. And then then you come into the hall as a whole year group, and we bring in three charity representatives to then talk about their real life experience. And and in that context, what is great about it is that we get to have a much better relationship with those charities. And one of the things that I think has been amazing is how well they've responded to it. And in that context, uh at the end of the day, the students get a token represent or five tokens representing a pound point each, and they can choose which charities they then go and give that to. And we turn those donations into pound coins and give those charities those donations. But the the feedback almost universally, and maybe it's because they're you know, I don't know why it is, but the feedback we tend to get is that charities are saying it's just great to be in the schools and talk to the young people. Um, it's just great to connect with the local community. And of course, for some of the some of the charities, actually, their work is working with young people, and so for them, or with schools, and so for them, they're like, Well, this is our mission, this is literally what we do. Yeah, I think I've gone a bit off track with what your actual question is. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

I think it's no, it's really, really interesting. I mean, I've sort of gone off track with my own question. But um the uh the other thing I was one wanted to ask, uh touching on something we talked about earlier. When when the the young people are kind of deciding on the organizations that they want to support, obviously they kind of pick a cause area or an issue. Uh, presumably it's not as simple as then just like identifying organizations that happen to work in that area, they then want to dig into some questions about the work that that organization does. I'm really interested what kinds of things do they want to know? You know, what does due diligence look like for the young people who are involved in this? Because like my experience when you get you know normal people involved in participatory things is they can be quite brutal in terms of like they really want to kind of drill down into things and ask some quite tough questions. And you know, kids tend to do that by nature anyway. So I'm just really interested what sort of things they feel they need to know about the organizations before they make a decision.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question. I mean, I think you know, we we actually provide them with um with sort of double spread spread of quest page of questions that they might want to ask the charities. And but I think you're right, you know, young people have the fewer qualms about asking difficult questions. So uh so yeah, I suppose that that that is something we we see from the young people. I actually think I see it a bit more in uh when you have young people on the judging panel. When you have young people sat on the panel watching their peers or the you know from the year group below them or a few years below them, that's when I tend to see that sort of slight group brutality coming up. Where they you know, and they'll quite easily turn around and say, Well, you said that you wanted to do this and you only did this, and why didn't you do that? And when are you gonna do it if you're and what are you gonna do now? What's gonna happen next? Like is this just for now, or is this like, or you didn't speak loudly enough, you know, all those simple things. I think in terms of I think it's such a big in terms of going back to the decision about the charities they support, it's such a big they're already learning so much, I think, about the fact that charities exist and what they even do. But it's I don't think I've had any experience really of them being brutal in that way at that stage in the in the programme, and actually it's also new to them just the concept that the learning that is the the questions that you know they tend to get a presentation from the charity and then have an opportunity to ask questions. Um, and I think there's so much that they're learning in that moment that maybe that's why we don't see that sort of harsh digging at that stage. I don't know, but it's in that's interesting to me because it hadn't it hadn't really occurred to me, and I think and I do think actually, you know, I've been thinking a lot about the similarity between what we're doing and that sort of participatory grant making process that is happening a bit more on community organizations. Yeah, absolutely. So that's a yeah, it's a really interesting one that I I would yeah, I'd I'd be interested to think about that a bit more probably.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

Well, one to keep a watch on for the future. And I guess the final question I want to ask you is it touches on something I'm I'm really interested in at the moment, which is the kind of you know, against the backdrop of there being some pretty big problems facing society and ones that like client, you know, climate breakdown, democratic backsliding and stuff, they're so big that it's often easy to feel a bit defeated by them. I think there's something really important about the role of charities and social action and giving people a sense of, well, I can at least do something. And obviously, we hear a lot particularly about the impact on young people's mental health and the kind of you know anxious generation stuff. I'm just interested in whether you've measured or even just got an anecdotal sense of whether this the students who take part in in the first give program, you know, whether it actually helps them their well-being and to just to feel a bit better about the state of the world.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

Yeah, I mean, I think it I think it's inevitable that it does. We've not done, I'll be honest, we've not done sort of any any measurements here, but obviously there's there are various different research papers that that again and again demonstrate that participation in this kind of activity leads to improved well-being. Um, and and for me, sort of the the natural argument around doing this sort of work is that it brings the focus to your local community and to the things you actually see around you. And and that's really where I think it's it's valuable. Like this is we're called first give because in many in many cases, it's the first time that young people have been given the responsibility of giving, uh giving back in a way that's meaningful and in a way that is delivered you know that is deliberated and and critical and thought at thought through. And I think agency um is so important within that, and that actually feeling like you can make a difference and giving them the experience of doing something where they feel like they had an impact, you know, it's the beginning of a journey that hopefully will continue on. So I thought there's sort of two things here, which is first of all, well-being more generally, like actually just taking part in raising money or um or being involved in your community or connecting with people who are doing something good and seeing the value of the money you donate or the thousand pounds that you win for a charity, and that being a real world thing, I think inevitably, you know, giving feels good. And then, secondly, is this thing around agency and giving young people a voice and a platform where they can stand up and even just talking about the things that you care about can be can be powerful, and especially at a room where you've got the mayor or the local MP and two kids from the year group above you, and your head teacher, and actually head teachers. I I think you know, the feedback we get from head teachers on the final, you know, first of all, I've lost track of the number of times a teacher will head teacher will turn to me and say, I can't believe it's that kid that's stood up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they go, The only time I ever see that kid is when I'm having to, you know, tell them off and they're in my office for something. And and here they are. And I remember I can't ever forget there's one teacher who who was like, today has really actually changed my perception of who that person is. And I just think that's really powerful. But but to to feel like you're being listened to in that way, you know, it's it it's just as you know, it's I don't know, it's that that idea that what you're doing right now in this space matters when so much of their school experience doesn't feel like it matters, and there are so few places where they do get to have a voice in anything. I think that's that's something I think we're all really proud of at first give because I think that can be a switch as well. And I think the the sort of the impact of that on someone's um belief in themselves um is really positive. And like you say, not just belief in themselves, but belief in the ability to do something, and actually things are slightly less over, you know, overawing, and and there are things you can do, there are actions you can take, and it makes everything feel a little bit better. And that's not to deny that some of these big problems are sort of outside of the scope of what we can do in do anything about individually, but I think you have to start from the point of doing something and believing that that something can make a difference, even if it's just to one other person, and that I think is is yeah, is really central to what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, and and I feel better. So we we did it. We managed to find a positive note on which trend, which is really great. Um, just meant to say, Isaac, yeah, thanks ever so much for coming on the podcast. Really great to hear all about it, really, really interesting to talk about it. And I think you know, the question around kind of young people and philanthropy and social action, it's good that it's getting you know more attention. I think people are sort of taking it more seriously. Um, I'll put links in the show notes to places where people can find more about the work of First Give and the evaluation and that kind of thing. Um, and yeah, just wish you all the best with it in the future. Thanks so much, Rodery. Great to speak to you. Okay, great. Well, my thanks again to Isaac for coming on the podcast. Really great uh to have a chance to chat. We've chatted a number of times before, but really good to uh to sit down and do that um for you guys. Uh I put links in the show notes to places where you can find more information about First Gives work and also the evaluation uh that Isaac mentioned and some things that he's written about um their work. Uh put links in the show notes to a couple of things I've written that might also be interesting and a few back episodes of this podcast that are relevant as well. Uh if you're interested more broadly in any issues around philanthropy and civil society, do check out the website whyphilanthropymatters.com. Uh sign up for the newsletter. That's a good way of getting kind of updates and insight and analysis once a month. Uh check out the back issues of this podcast, also just have a dig through what else is there on the website. There's uh you know years worth of material built up at this point. If you want to follow me on social media, you can definitely do that. I'm on LinkedIn, a little bit on Blue Sky. If you've got ideas for people that I could talk to on the podcast or topics you'd like to hear us cover, please do drop me a line. You can find my contact details at the Y Philanthropy Matters website. Other than that, just like, subscribe, share with uh your friends, leave us a nice review on iTunes or wherever else it is you get your podcasts these days, and I will see you next time. Okay, bye, I'm gonna go.