SPEAKER_02 0:13

The philanthropism podcasts with Roger Davis. Hello, you're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast. This is the podcast where we try to put philanthropy in context. I'm your host, as ever, Rodri Davis, and this week we are in conversation, and it's with Lisa Greer. Now, Lisa is herself a philanthropist and major donor, but also somebody who over the years has become very interested in the whole business of fundraising and what works about it and what potentially doesn't work. And as such, she's written a number of books. She wrote a book a few years ago called Philanthropy Revolution, and more recently, she wrote a book called The Essential Fundraisers Handbook, which is the kind of centrepiece of what I sat down to talk to Lisa about. And she also coaches fundraisers and talks to audiences of fundraisers and donors about fundraising and philanthropy all the time. So I sat down with Lisa fairly recently, and as I say, to talk to her about the book and also her kind of wider work. So we talked a bit about what the backdrop was to the new book and what had led her to write it and what she uh sort of hoped that people took from it and what the reaction had been so far. We talked a bit about um lots of the ideas in the book. Um, for instance, one of the big themes is about the importance of seeing fundrais uh fundraising as a relationship-based um practice, and whether fundraising as a profession has become perhaps maybe too reliant on particular tools and models rather than those sort of deeper or sometimes softer skills of relationship building, and whether that was in part a reflection of a desire to sort of professionalise fundraising, but in a particular way, and whether the the reward and incentive structures within fundraising departments and within the profession as a whole maybe made it harder for fundraisers to focus on long-term relationship building even when they want to do that. Um we talked uh quite a bit about the question of sort of gratitude and thanks, um, and how you get that balance as a fundraiser between saying thank you to a donor at whatever level uh and that sort of natural human instinct to express gratitude when somebody does offer you a gift, and making sure that you don't then tip over into sort of fawning or obescence towards um towards donors, and how that also relates to some of the expectations donors might have about other forms of recognition, such as naming rights, and whether we need to distinguish a bit more between the sort of basic idea of thanking and some of those slightly more controversial ideas around donor recognition. We also talked about whether things might be changing quite significantly in certain areas as a result of a new generation of donors um emerging, um, both the sort of younger generation as a result of this kind of um great wealth transfer that we're constantly told that we're on the on the cusp of, but also because there are just more donors out there who perhaps represent historically marginalized communities or uh or kind of women donors, and uh slowly fundraisers and non-profits are starting to realise that they are a potentially huge kind of untapped market for many of them. And we talked a bit about whether they were different in their attitudes or in what they wanted to get out of fundraising relationships. Um we also talked about some of the sort of specific tools of fundraising and whether you know those were still relevant in this day and age, particularly we talked about the idea of sort of non-profit garlas and big black tie events, um, and you know, differing views on whether those are useful or appropriate, and how perhaps non-profits can can use them appropriately in some uh cases, but where they might want to evaluate whether they're actually worth um worth using. And we also talked about the fact that Lisa, you know, in addition to um being very keen on uh philanthrop uh fundraising as a relationship-based activity, is also actually very in favour of recurring donations and sort of regular donations as something that kind of gets people into the habit of giving, and how you might join the dots between that seemingly more passive activity and the more active involvement that people might have further down the line, um, or whether you know it makes them more amenable to additional fundraising asks in the future. Um we also talked about donor-advised funds, why they had um become somewhat controversial, and whether actually there was something to be said for the role of fundraisers in providing people opportunities to give more out of DAFs that could overcome some of the concerns about money becoming warehoused in those DAFs. Um then we also talked about the current debates between donor-centric and community-centric approaches to fundraising and whether that dynamic was being somewhat overstated and whether there was actually uh more of middle ground that perhaps you know both sides could could agree on and profitably move forward. Um so without further ado, let's get into the conversation. Uh, hope you enjoy it. Um, I found it really interesting. Uh, and I will be back at the end for the usual bit of housekeeping and updates. Okay, great. Well, I'm here with Lisa Greer. Hi there, Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Hey, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Um really good, thank you. Yeah, um great to have a chance to talk. Um, really looking forward to talking. And I guess the focus of the conversation is your book, or still relatively new book, The Essential Fundraiser's Handbook. And I want to sort of talk about lots of things that are in that. Um, but maybe the best place to start is just for you to say a bit in your own words about what the book's about and what it was that led you to to write it.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Great. My background is that I was raised very much as a in sort of a middle-class household household where the in Los Angeles, uh, where the word philanthropy was not used. Um, not because it was a bad word, but because it meant sort of people with putting on airs and that kind of thing. And and our giving was really local and kind of to the school and to the girls' backouts and those kinds of things. And so we kind of continued that way. And I obviously gave money when I could, but but we certainly were not on anybody's list of donors and uh a regular donor. So many years later, and my husband was raised in a similar in Canada in a similar situation, um, and and it was all it was all fine, but all of a sudden we found that we were about to become extremely wealthy. And we um were really worried about it, excited, but also worried. We didn't want to turn into you know those people who were um not very nice people. We didn't want our kids to be um negatively impacted. Um so we were very nervous about all of that. And and when we um and and we're waiting for this this IPO to happen and happen or not happen, and and we're we're we're just wondering like, what is our new life going to be like and how do we do do well in that? And so we decided that um we would find a uh really sit down and try and decide um what we wanted to give to as our first charitable donation. And it didn't occur to me at that point that everybody who had money didn't have that conversation, which I've since found out, unfortunately, that's not the case. But um, but I I just thought, well, okay, we'll we'll just figure out where we want to give money. And why don't we do this sort of pie in the sky thing and say, hey, if we have you know any amount of money we want, where would we want to give it? Like where do we, what's most important to us? And so we sat down and we each came up with an idea uh together. Um, you know, this is about 10 days before the IPO, so before this whole thing was going to happen. And we said, uh and so I said to my husband, let's do this. It'll feel really good. And also there's a little bit of the you know, deal with God thing there. Hopefully, hope this happens because you know we we make this really great charitable thing and promise. So we said, okay, we didn't even know the language of uh fundraising at all. And so I said, where are we gonna give our first? I didn't even say gift, I said our first donation. And so so he went first and he's had something called Crohn's disease for a very long time. Um, and so not surprisingly, he said, Well, I'd like to find out where the best research is being done uh anywhere, um ideally somewhere in the US uh on Crohn's disease to try and make sure that nobody has to go through what I went through and uh and that ideally there's some sort of cure. So I said, okay, fine. I we have no idea where to go. And I said, I'll just call the hospital where you've had your surgeries and um and we'll see if we can find out where who's doing the best research. I'm happy to do a research project. So he said, fine. And so he said, What do you want to do? And I'm the incoming uh chair at our uh synagogue in Los Angeles, and I was um really about to take over a few months after that, and we had a capital campaign going on. And the only reason I knew it was called a capital campaign is because we had a consultant who was working there who had told us it's called a capital campaign. So, and we were redoing our sanctuary and renovating it. And so um there was a million dollars left um to be raised on the capital campaign. And I said, Well, I like checking things off lists. So I said, Well, wouldn't it be great if we could just I could have that checked off the list when I start my 10 year as chair and know that I don't have to worry about immediately going out and raising that extra million dollars to finish the campaign. So uh we said, I so Josh said, you know, okay, okay, fine. If that's what you want to do, you know, that's great. And so I called the person at the synagogue who was uh ran the whole thing, and I said, I just want to let you know that assuming this thing happens in 10 days, uh, we are going to give you the final million dollars for the capital campaign. And at that point, I never thought those words would ever come out of my mouth in my lifetime because you know, you just don't think you're gonna say that. But but more surprise, so I got it out, and then I I don't know what I expected, but I expected somewhere between, you know, sort of like you won the lottery or something like that, you know, screaming and whatever, or something. And I got nothing. There was no response. And I said, excuse me, are you there? And she said, Yes. And I said, Well, did you hear what I said? And she said, Yes, I did. And um, she says, but I don't know what to say. And I said, Well, I guess you can say thank you. And she said, Well, I don't know if I can because I didn't make an ask. And that's when I thought, what world did I just get into? This is crazy where people don't just say thank you. Like, what is that? So, and I don't blame her because she was trained in that way. I mean, as many, many, many, probably hundreds of thousands of fundraisers are trained that way. And uh, and and still as of today, I um, well, let me let me tell you what happened at the end of that. So I hang up the phone, neither of us she doesn't say thank you. And then the phone rings again. And I think, oh, okay, she was just a little shocked. And so she's calling back to say thank you. And instead, when I picked up the phone, she said, Can I talk to your husband? And she put, I put my husband on the line and he's saying, like, what's going on? And she said to him, Do you have any idea what your wife is doing? And that it in addition made me think, I'm in some very strange place that I don't understand. And so we we found um over time that those were not unusual situations, especially when somebody decides to start giving who hasn't been known as a donor. Uh, and so that became a uh a really big deal for us to uh to understand that we weren't on the list. We weren't on the official list of donors. We don't get to be donors because um um, and and of course, fundraisers are always saying we want you to come in, we want you to give, but because we didn't, and because we started with these two gifts that we went out to find, we um we we were proactive about it. The fundraisers didn't and the organizations didn't know what to do with us. And I find that's still the situation today. Um many, if not most, uh um gifts that that are um uh just some sort of like just come from nowhere, you know, from your website or from wherever, uh unsolicited gifts are treated as something suspect. Um, and I understand that there are people who we should have some degree of concern about that, but not for everybody, and not to the point where, uh, and that's those a very small percentage of people who are bad actors. So the the people who are uh just wanting to give because we see something online, I mean, that's why we have websites and that's why we do information, so that somebody might say, hey, we'd like to give. We shouldn't be so cautious that we're making those people feel like they shouldn't be giving. And what happens with that is right now we're in a situation where there's lots and lots of younger people who have not been givers or donors forever. And if they decide that they want to give a gift because they hear about something interesting and they get that kind of response, I'm very, very concerned that they will stop trying and they'll just put their money away somewhere and they won't give anymore because they'll think this is a crazy business and I don't think I need to be here. So that's how this all started.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

Yeah, really interesting. Lots I want to pick up on in there. And it's, I mean, I guess the first thing to say is it's all uh in it's odd in a way, your experience there, because it almost it sounds like the, you know, for most organizations, it's their fairy tale is you know, actually somebody's just found their website and turns up and wants to give them lots of money without them having to go out looking for it. But I guess they're so conditioned in a way, or or you know, it just doesn't fit within the mindset that maybe it's hard to deal with. I guess the the two things I immediately wanted to pick up on were I think key themes of your your book that that relate to that. One is about the the ability to say thank you and the whole role of sort of gratitude and recognition, and then the other one is about the the profession of fundraising and whether sometimes that kind of acts against just dealing with things uh you know in the way that you would assume people sort of normally do. Um I guess taking that that latter one first, you touched on it there. But do you think that one of the challenges here is that you know you're very clear that you think that fundraising should be something that's about relationship building and sort of relationship management, particularly when you're talking about kind of engaging philanthropists. But do you think that the way that the fundraising profession has gone, it's become too reliant on the tools that they used rather than sort of the deeper skills of relationship building?

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yes, and uh so uh so yes, I think that the the rules are make sense to a certain point. But first of all, those rules were created. Um uh Beth Brees, who most people I think there know, um, she actually traced this to the beginning of the uh 20th century, um, where a lot of these rules about the ask and the procedural rules were actually created then and really haven't changed much in about 100 years, which is crazy because it's very difficult to find anything that hasn't changed in 100 years. But these these rules have have pretty much stayed the same. And when you ask nonprofits why do you do it that way? Uh, because you know, I of course had that objectivity to say, I don't understand why you do that. That doesn't make sense to me. They'll say the reason they they almost always say is because it's always been done that way. And that's not a good answer, right? So um, but what's happened is that structure has become so uh so so specifically defined. And I think with the lack of resources that most nonprofits have, they are, they're not, they don't have enough resources generally to say, well, let's look into that. Instead, they just say, we have to keep going, we have to raise money, we have to do this right now, we don't have time to think about it. And so they keep perpetuating these norms that I don't think make any sense uh anymore. And they might make sense for older donors who've done it the same way forever, but that's a very, very small part of our population or the people that that understand that. This is, let's say, the larger donors who are 80 or years older or more. Many of them are just used to it being done this way, where you say uh uh, you know, you have a meeting with them once a year, you you do a little tap dance, you tell them why you what you're doing, and they give you a check and then you leave and you come back the next year. That seems to be the norm, and that will not work with most donors today at all. And so I think that those rules and um the tactics used are have become not only outdated, but they're actually um offensive to a lot of newer donors.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

And and do you think the part of the challenge is that for organizations, even if they recognize that in an ideal world, what they should be doing is kind of trying to develop long-term relationships, even if they won't necessarily result in significant donations in the immediate short term. The challenge is that they they kind of have financial pressures that mean that they feel like they need to focus more on the immediate short term and things that, you know, kind of the low-hanging fruit. And then that filters down to the incentives that individual fundraisers have, which are not really about relationship building very often. They're more about bringing this amount of money in this kind of set period of time.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Yeah, that's right. And it's a big problem. I think the problem comes from leadership, but a lot of it also comes from boards. And there's this idea of, you know, we don't have time to have this discussion, just go get the check and come back, go get the money and come back, and that's it. And if you don't come back, then sorry. And it's it's it's really demeaning towards the fundraiser. And most of the fundraisers that I speak to, especially the younger ones, really want to have those relationships. They want to, uh, I mean, it's funny. My daughter works for a company that um works with a lot of small retail outlets uh in Los Angeles, and she wants to go visit them. And she works for a very large company, and the company said, you're not allowed to do that. And she said, Well, if I'm talking to them and I'm selling to them, shouldn't I be able to go and meet with them and learn about them? And they said, We don't have time for that. And so I got the same response recently. I had a fundraiser come up to me and she said, I don't know what to do. I was just told by my boss, you know, it and said, Look, I listened to Lisa's thing and whatever, and I read the book, and I'm very um, I would like to create a relationship and go talk to them. And she said, we do not have time for it, just like you just said, we have no time for that. We don't have the resources for that, just go get the money. And it is so short-sighted, not in a pie in the sky kind of way, but was short-sighted in terms of how long donors stay with organizations. And if you create a relationship, you might not get the money the first year, you might get it the second year, you might get it 18 months into it, you might get it longer. But then those people will stay with you. And so, over a period of time, not even a large amount of time, those people will stay with you longer. And it's it's a relationship. It's not, it's not this one-time thing. And so when we find that that about four out of every five donors who give the first time don't give a second time, it's pretty clear that's a problem. And our churn rate in the sector is that churn rate is way, way below anybody else's. Um, or I guess it's much worse than any other uh sector, because I've actually compared that to other sectors. And it's it's it's crazy. It's like something has to be happening for people not to want to come back, give the money at the beginning and then not to want to come back. And I think the reason for that is this idea that just someone's there just to get the money and run. And I think donors feel that.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Yeah, absolutely. And it's probably, you know, it's not a pleasant feeling to be in that position of feeling and say that's the basis of the relationship. I guess one of the challenges as well, maybe from the the wider perception of this, is that when you say actually, you know, the it should be about relationship building, for some people they they immediately go to a caricature that is then, you know, smaller nonprofit organizations haven't just spent a large amount of time kind of meeting the needs and the desires of donors when they're not sure whether that's going to pay off. But in practical terms, then, what would you say relationship, you know, good relationship management should look like that manages to balance putting time and resources into it, but not spending all of your time doing that as a nonprofit?

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah, well, I think that uh it's a great question. I think that people overthink this. And um, and and this idea that you have to be with them face to face, uh, you have to have a meal, that's just really archaic at this point. Some people like that, but a lot of people don't. And most nonprofits I talk to will not allow their fundraisers to ask for money over Zoom. And I think that's crazy. I'm happy to not have to put on pants, you know, pajamas and and and whatever, and not have to go to this, uh, you know, go sit and have a lunch with somebody because just for them to ask me for money. I I would rather spend time with my family or you know, doing something else. And um, that has not, surprisingly, that is not a that that feeling is not shared by most other nonprofits. They really do believe that, well, we've done it and it worked, so we're just gonna keep doing it that way. And I think if you instead, if you ask the donors, how would you like to be uh uh uh you know spoken with, and would you like, would you like us to have these conversations uh uh virtually or in person or over coffee or whatever, people will tell you what they want. And you'll also find that a lot of them are just fine being asked in in whatever way you want it to be. So we've got this sort of crash of uh and conflict of different kinds of generational kinds of things, but also even if you take the generational out of it of who we're talking to from the fundraiser perspective, it's it's just it's just old rules that don't make sense in modern society.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Um and I guess that also links to the other thing that I wanted to pick up on first, which is around this question of how you say thank you when you have got a donation, which is it's a sort of an interestingly quite a sort of contentious point because again, you say actually, you know, if somebody gives you a large amount of money as a donor, you know, it seems natural to say thank you. But then there's a a certain resistance to that, because for some people it implies that you know that it's being demanded of them or that it kind of inappropriately is asking the non profit to be sort of supplicant and that sort of thing. But again, uh if somebody does give you a large amount of money, the the natural human response is just as a person. is to to show gratitude. So again, how how do nonprofits do that in a way that is kind of healthy and productive and kind of make sure that the relationship is is a good one?

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Right. So this this this is one of those issues where the pendulum has swung too far in the wrong other direction with this idea that you don't say thank you. As far as I'm concerned, that's just good manners. And and you're taught as a baby to say thank you. You're taught at probably 18 months old to say thank you. So the idea that there's this power thing and you can't say thank you anymore, that for donors it doesn't feel good at all. And I think for fundraisers it also feels awkward. So that's just a basic thing. Hello, you know, say hello. What you should not say hello to them when you when you walk in a room I I mean that's just crazy. So I think that that has been taken to an extreme uh uh with the pendulum going to this other direction of oh well you have to say things the right way now then there's an extreme version of that though just the words thank you I think should always be there. The idea of pandering to a donor because they are giving you money at whatever amount of money and by the way the thank you should be said if they give you 50 cents the kid gives it out of their pocket. It doesn't matter you say thank you all the time. And I think that's human nature and most people do that. But but sitting and saying well there's a power dynamic I can't that's really going into another area that doesn't it it doesn't even fit and it's it's ignoring personal feelings and relationships and how people think and how people feel. So so but the idea when when somebody says well I want it this way and I want you to thank me with a brass band I think that's a little ridiculous unless you happen to have a brass band nearby but but I I think that it and it also shouldn't be in relation to how much money they give. So it's people give different amounts of money and if if somebody clearly is is is has really focused and honed in on your cause and your mission and your organization and wants to know everything about it and really wants to be part of it, let them like why would you not let them? So and you can say thank you to them and and I think we have to get this this idea of don't say thank you just I think that needs to just die, frankly.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

And yeah it's I mean just I think you've touched on it there, but just to sort of nail a point home so I mean is it partly that we need to distinguish a lot more clearly between the idea of of just saying thank you and expressing gratitude which is kind of natural and human and the the wider question of kind of donor recognition and and naming rights because it does feel as though they they do get tied together and actually they're relatively sort of separate things.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah so that's a very fraught concept and I'm actually working with a couple of clients on that right now. The one of them wants to be very egalitarian and they would like and they're they're doing a very major capital campaign and they don't want to name buildings after people they think that that's not right. And I um I I've also talked to other people though who also want things to be egalitarian and they've said we just have to there are just some people who if they want to give us an amount of money for a building and it's you know 10 million or whatever it is we we really need that's become a little bit of a standard and we need to offer that. We don't need to push for that um but we need to offer it. And there's some other ways around it. I think I think both of them are right. And I do think that um that not offering naming rights for large, large large projects um I do think that that can be an impediment or at least what it does it reduces your your donor group. I did hear a story the other day about somebody who paid whatever the amount was let's say it was 10 million to get a building to have your name on a building this person paid the 10 million in this case it was dollars specifically to have a contract written up to say that nobody would have their name on that building. And I thought that was great. I don't know who the person is I haven't found him or her but I thought that was awesome. I know that my brother did something once where they were going to put his name on a building and he really didn't want it and they really wanted to have something that signified that somebody had given the money and they put a poem on the building. So I think that's lovely. And I think if somebody wants to do it in honor of someone like let's say you know it's gosh I guess that that Harvard library where the son died on the Titanic and you know do you want to have something and have the name of your son that's it's hard to determine how much of that is is somebody being you know pushy or saying I'm better than you and the opposite which is just I really miss my kid and I would like to have my kid's name on something so people remember it. So I think we can look at it all of those different ways. I think when people demand it it's um it's I think that's getting into an area that we should I'm not comfortable with. I also think that uh somebody was talking to me about their donor wall the other day and you can have a donor wall it can be virtual or otherwise but I do think that it's totally fine to have a list of people who've supported your organization. It doesn't have to say how much money they gave though. And sometimes it will sometimes it won't and so what I recommend is that every fundraiser asks the donors that they're talking to how they like to be thanked. And everybody knows how they want to be thanked and some people will just say I just want it to be anonymous. I just feel good knowing it. And some people will say I would love to just get a a note from you at some point with an email I just want to be acknowledged. I don't care what you in fact most people I talk to say I don't care what form the thank you's in. I just want it to be quick. I I don't want to wait a month for it. And and I agree with them. So and it's the same thing like let's say I take a cake over to somebody's home because they're in a bereavement situation and and you know they're gonna say thank you. So it's like I I don't if it came a month later I would think there's something strange happen with that. So I think a lot of this is just total common sense and if we can focus a little bit more on common sense and realizing we're dealing with human beings, I think a lot of the specific rules will become clearer.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Yeah absolutely um and just related to it in a way I guess because it's another area where maybe attitudes are shifting but there's an element of it sort of you know pragmatism about you know does it work as a technique? In the book you talk about nonprofit garas as a means of fundraising which I thought was really interesting because again some people you know have have real reservations about them or kind of strong a negative reaction but then lots of organizations still find them quite a valid way of fundraising. What are your thoughts on kind of you know where things stand at the moment with them as a tool for fundraising and and whether there are things to do, you know, to avoid and things that you can do well.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Right. Well well although it sounds really horrible to say I'm gonna say it anyway which is that the the COVID pushed a lot of things into being right so there um and I I'm not saying COVID was a good thing, but it did push some things into being i.e zooms right and uh and and giving people that ability so so during COVID a lot of organizations did these um virtual uh galas and learned that as much as they wanted to believe that was a temporary fix, that they actually make sense. So I think that a um a gala hybrid gala that's part in person and part virtual is lovely. I think all virtual galas are okay. It's hard to keep someone's attention usually I think there's some rules around them such as I most virtual galas I think shouldn't be more than an hour or an hour and 15 minutes because people just don't have the attention to sit for that long. And and I think that's that's totally fine. But the most important piece of information I have a suggestion about galas is to really stop talking about how much our gross was our gross revenue and think about your net revenue. And I can't tell you how often I say to somebody they'll say oh we made 10 million and whatever a bunch of money at this at our gala and I'll say okay so how much of that was net and very often they'll say we don't know. And that's a problem.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

If you don't know what the net was then you shouldn't be doing the gala yeah absolutely um and it it leads me on to another issue or another theme that's there in the book which is um you make you know in various places I think in relation to to galas for instance you sort of say actually one of the things is that attitudes amongst a younger generation of donors might be very different and so you know might need to rethink it. And there are lots of other places where you talk about that as well. So I mean what impact do you think that this shift particularly as you know we're kind of entering into this great wealth transfer where a whole new generation of people are going to come into wealth and they probably are going to look very different from the stereotype that lots of organizations got of who is a donor what does that gonna mean for fundraising and for nonprofits?

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Well it depends on how the nonprofits behave. If the nonprofits decide to step up and say this is a new day and we need to in fact it was a new day 20 years ago and we should have been doing this but now we're going to actually implement um relationship based fundraising we're actually going to the the the thing that I I really counsel most nonprofits to do is look at every single thing that you do every single thing. And if the answer if one of the things you do is we have a gala every year in November why do you have a gala every year in November? Or we whenever somebody asks a question we send them to this person and this person. Or whenever somebody gives X amount of money we give them this and if they give them under this amount of money if it's under this amount of money we give them that. Look at every single one of those and say why do we do that? And this is a really good time to do that especially in the way you just put it was beautiful having this huge amount of money now coming as well as at the same time having a society where lots of young people become wealthy at a very young age. So I I think we just need to realize that the um that it's coming it's it's here and we're going to lose donors if we in fact we'll lose our organizations if we don't step up and say why do we do this and does it make sense for this generation and so that can start with thank you it can but it it definitely needs to include acknowledging that some people like gallas, some people don't like gallas. And and the idea then what I hear back from people when I say that is well yeah but donors always love gallas. They like to get dressed up and I find that incredibly offensive because I because you're a donor you're automatically this person who likes I don't like that. When I we gave our first large amount of money I said to them we will not continue this deal unless you um uh this transaction I guess you can call it because it felt like a transaction but we will not continue it if you uh unless you unless you allow us up front unless you I agree that you I'm trying to remember what we said you agree that you will never push us to go to a gala because we really don't like them. And uh they think that's hilarious but but they you know and I I don't even think it's funny. It's just like some people everybody's different. Every donor's different every human being's different and to and I realize what you said earlier about limited resources don't allow you to get to know every single donor but there's very little tiny things you can do to get to know your donor that really take very little resources where you can give the donor a feeling that you recognize them as an individual as opposed to as a you know money bag.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Absolutely and and on on that sort of younger generation or the fact that there are these donors out there that maybe a lot of nonprofits are failing to connect with at the moment. Do you do you think that's partly because they they just don't have the the understanding or the tools available or do you think again it's partly because they sort of are thinking quite short term or or you know feel as though actually there's more merit in just focusing on what they see as where the money is at the moment, which is kind of you know an older generation of donors that they kind of know and understand.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

And you know at what at what point are they suddenly going to find that they fail to do the groundwork to build the relationships with right well you know you look at the churn rate and uh and and you you try to realize well you if you if you get rid of all of the rules and you get these people in a room and you say look you're on this constant treadmill you feel like you're on a constant treadmill which they do and and four out of every five people that you bring in this year are not going to come back. So so how does you have to go replenish them just to stay afloat. I don't actually know what's so difficult about understanding that other than this idea that yes we I hear you but I don't have time to think about that. And if they don't have time to think about that then they probably need to think about what's going to happen when they run out of money and they have to close down and what's going to happen to their constituents and beneficiaries when that happens because that's going to happen. They will not they cannot rely on the uh what I call it is the the the older white men the 10 older white men who usually are supporting many, many organizations and certainly institutions we have here that when they're gone, we know they're going to be gone. So when they are gone, you are not going to get the money and therefore what are you going to do? And at that point if you've offended all sorts of incoming donors because you've treated them like crap basically because they were too young or not on your list or whatever, then you're in deep trouble. So I think they have to really look at the the that their organization and and it's not it's not like you could say well we have no indicator of that we might raise this much money and we're raising the same amount of money every year. Okay that's fine but how much is it costing you to raise that amount of money? How long are your fundraisers staying with you? How, you know, if you if you if you take what happens in one year and you take that out to five or 10 years, where are you going to be? Because your costs are going to go up your fundraisers are going to be less likely to stick around and and what are you going to do? So they just kind of need a little bit of a reality check uh maybe very firmly to to to and I think everybody top to bottom at those organizations it's it usually is the senior leadership that is propagating this um what I call bad behavior.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

And and I guess linked to that one of the things I wanted to ask was you you mentioned again in the book that you know there are plenty of fundraisers who who get this and feel similarly and would like to be doing these things and for various reasons are not able to and as a result it feels as though actually you know there are very high levels of burnout at the moment and lots of people in the fundraising world feeling sort of very pressured and unable to deliver. What can be done do you think to to sort of better recognize fundraisers within organizations and give them the support they need to do the kinds of things you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Right so so this is all connected the same way everything's connected to everything else that I've been talking about. So if you tell fundraisers that you need them to be raising money, bringing in new donors, helping choose the tableclass for the gala, figuring out writing the thank you notes by hand, all those kinds of things most fundraisers are pretty intelligent people and they they're coming to this because they believe in a in purpose and in a mission but but they're not doing it because they can't get a job elsewhere. And so the first thing we have to do is recognize that that we have these quality people around and we are churning them as quickly as we're churning donors. And because we are not paying them enough we're not providing them with continuing education we're not recognizing their voice. We're not even listening to them we're just saying you do it the way it's always been done and I think with those organizations that say wait a second we can see by actual numbers and trends we can see what's happening and that we can't do it the same way. So we're going to be part of bringing you part of uh into the discussion to decide how are we going to remake what we have now to make sure that we're here for our constituents in the future years. And that has to happen. It doesn't happen very often but it's starting to happen a little bit and uh and then the next question I get when I say this from people is but how do we start? Like we're just I'm a mid-level fundraiser and how do I do that? How do I get their attention? And one of the things I suggest is that they prepare uh really some financial models but in really easy to understand graphics to show how and and and one of the models for me that was was really helpful is is looking at other industries and how do you if an industry uh uh finds that their churn is uh uh 80% of their people are not coming back, they're probably going to be out of business. So if you can show them that and say this we're the only sector that that does that and and doesn't change and we need to do that. But I think there have to be there have I I I'm waiting for the day when some wonderful sort of somebody who does research presentations um you know figures out how to make that in the most simple to understand graphic way that you guys are shooting yourselves in the foot by continuing and uh to propagate these norms at your organization. And you actually have people in your organization already who see it and have and know of a way out and that way out or the way into the future or into what we need to do today is to listen to the fundraisers and give them some support. Another thing that you can do is let them see how much money it costs. You know the average fundraiser stays at an organization about 16 months now. So how much does it cost like how long does it take to train them? How long does it take to integrate them? And then when they leave what is your cost for having to then do that all over again every 16 months and if they can see that actual cost to the organization which is pretty easy to find maybe they'll start understanding that oh this is not that we're bad at choosing fundraisers which they might say this is because this is the nature of the beast that 16 month thing is standard across the industry and and how can we get fundraisers to stay and this is this is part and parcel of that. So it's it's really it's all about sustainability. You will not be sustainable if you don't make these changes.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Yeah absolutely and and linked to that that question of supporting uh fundraisers appropriately one of the things that you talk about in the book as well I thought was was really interesting at one point is that you know you you said that most donors are you know decent people who care about a cause and want to support it. You know, there are unfortunately some bad actors who you know behave inappropriately or make inappropriate demands or unreasonable demands. In those circumstances how does a nonprofit give fundraisers the support that they need to be able to push back on some of that or to say you know actually this is not okay. And at what point does an organization make the decision that it's not just pragmatism to keep the relationship going, but actually it's better just to say this is not right and we need to end the relationship?

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Yeah you know it's interesting we talk about those power dynamics with saying thank you. This is an area where I think I actually believe in the power dynamics a little bit of if somebody is is trying to tell you that they have so much power that they're going to change the direction your nonprofit goes or they're going to insist if you're giving money to an educational institution and they for example say well if we're giving you this much money we get to decide what the curriculum is those for me are crossing red lines and that's not acceptable. And so what I say to um to fundraisers and and nonprofit leaders is it's okay to fire a donor. And they look at me like I'm crazy but it's okay because what's happening is you're spending so much time on that donor and their particular crazy needs and demands and which are upsetting and offensive and not fair to the other donors and not fair to the organization and a waste of time and all those bad things. You're spending all that time to get that piece of money you can get that other piece of money that same amount of money if not more by just creating relationships with all these other donors who are coming in who are treated not very well when they start. So it's okay if for every one that's bad, there's probably a hundred that are great. You just need to go find those hundred and you're gonna be just fine.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Do not do not give in to those absolutely which I I I mean yeah I I guess it's just again it's one of those things where it's easy there's a sort of stick with the devil you know thing isn't there where people are like we absolutely see that but we also know that if we just go along with it we might get the money. So it's kind of there's a certain amount of bravery that's required and leadership I guess. And maybe this goes again to what you're saying about the role of boards.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Yeah it's bravery it's leadership it's also you know look at what some institutions did when you know Epstein was giving money and he didn't even give the money they went through this whole thing and they said yes you can have this yes you can have this no single person is worth that nobody and I mean I'd like to think we're all worth it but really if if we start being obnoxious we don't get to have different roles. It's not fair.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

No absolutely I think that's absolutely right. Um moving on to something else that I just wanted to ask you about because I thought again this was really interesting in the book that a lot of your emphasis is on the importance of fundraising as a as a relational um role but you also talk quite positively about recurring donations actually being something that's you know useful and and valuable I just wondered if you could say a bit about why that is and how you sort of square those those two things that are often seen as quite you know at two ends of a spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Yeah I I I I am a big big fan of of recurring donations and the interesting thing is that a recurring donor there there was a wonderful piece of research that came out with um Neon One about three months ago that if your listeners haven't seen it, they should take a look at it it's free on their website. And they uh queried about 1500 nonprofits so really huge number over a period of a couple of years. And what they found was that recurring donors are much more likely and who are usually thought of as the little donors you do it by mail you don't have to pay much attention to them that kind of thing that is completely wrong because what they found is these recurring donors are much more likely to give another single gift during the year when you need it. They are much more likely to stay with you. In fact recurring donors uh where the individual once a year traditional type donor uh will stay I think they said 1.7 um years so uh so you know some leave after one year some stay a little bit longer the recurring donors if you have that monthly thing where you're getting a monthly you know thank you or whatever it is or you're giving monthly and you feel good about giving your 50 whatever a month whatever it is those people are um in general staying at your organization eight to nine years which is incredible so that's just the way of getting off that treadmill those people are devoted to your organization they actually start they're more sticky as time goes on whereas the individual donors the one-time donors are less sticky as time goes on and you can find all those that research online um so it's it's really it's not like it's a different donor or a different kind of donor it's it's really just part of the whole donor landscape and and if you think of recurring giving relative to recurring uh to a subscription like your Netflix or whatever it is, you know everybody has things where they have a credit card on file and it gets charged every month, it's very difficult to pull that away. You have to have a really good reason to say I don't want to do this anymore. And that's why a lot of these companies are making gazillions of dollars because they realize people are less once they're in they're less likely to take it away. And with this with with our Traditional way that we're doing fundraising, it's actually the opposite of that, right? We're we're with it. So recurring donations keep you there longer and make and make it harder for you to leave, whereas the one-time donations make it really easy for you to leave. And in fact, a lot of one-time donations happen because somebody's beaten the donor up so much, you know, so to speak, that that they just say, I'll just pay you to what they call it a nuisance donation, is what people call it. Just get away from me and I never want to hear from you again, and I'm gonna block everything you send, but you have to just go away. And and that doesn't happen with recurring donors. They feel, and on their end, and I am one, uh, they feel very connected to the organization when they see and when I see every month that yes, you've given another, you know, $50 in my case to whatever organization it is. And and then you don't have to recognize them all the time. You you can they can get a receipt, which typically I don't consider a receipt as a thank you note, but they can get a receipt that says very nice, thank you for continuing to be to donate to our cause. And and in in many cases, what works really well is creating a name for them because they like to feel part of a club because we are the ongoing sustainers. And a lot of times people think the sustainers are only the people who give millions of dollars. But but really, these people, they're giving you money day in, day out. As your summertime does isn't raising enough money, then their money is still coming in. And it's been an extremely useful tool that unfortunately is there's an idea. This is sort of an archaic idea that, well, if we let people give monthly, it's a lot lower amount, so they're not going to give annually. And we've now they've now proven that that's not true. So it's we just have to look at numbers and look at the research and and think about ourselves and how would we feel if we were doing that, because every fundraiser, everybody I know has some sort of recurring credit card on files somewhere situation. So we we just need to look at reality and then and then realize, you'll quickly realize that, oh, well, our assumptions about us not needing to spend any time on recurring donors is just wrong.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

Yeah, really interesting. Um and and another thing that you talk about is as well in terms of somewhere where maybe at the moment fundraisers or most fundraisers don't quite kind of understand or maybe missing a trick, is around donor advice funds, um, which is, I mean, I guess there's two bits of this. I mean, the the one side is there's a whole wider debate about donor advice funds and and some criticism of them around, you know, concerns that there's a huge amount of sort of warehousing going on and that money's going into them and not out again. But is your point in the book is that maybe in part that's because fundraisers aren't actually offering people sufficient opportunities to spend the money out and they don't know how to tap into DAF donors. Um, maybe you could say a bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Yeah, I think that's pretty, it's a pretty crazy thing, and that's exactly the way you just described it. But um, first of all, I don't believe that most, just in the same way we talked earlier about there's some bad actors in giving who demand certain things, there's some bad actors who have donor advice funds. There's bad actors in the world of among fundraising professionals, there's bad actors everywhere, what's a small percentage. Most people who have donor advice funds are absolutely not putting it there to warehouse money. They are not there because they don't want to go into charity. They're putting it there because they have had some sort of windfall or bonus or something along those lines. And they don't want to, they want to think, um, seriously think about where we can put this money where it's going to cause the most impact. Where you know, where do we want it to go? And just because you just got that bonus doesn't mean that you're you all you already have that research ready to go and you've decided where you want it to go. So it gives them time to make those decisions. I do think that that people who don't get the money out in a certain period of time, meaning several years, I think that is a smart idea. I think if you are going to keep it there for 10 years and you never give a donation, that should be prohibited. I totally agree with that. Um, but the part about not welcoming uh donor advice funds, I personally had have had several experiences recently where I've really put my foot down and said, if you don't put your tax ID number and the address where the money goes on your collateral. And if your collateral says you have to call somebody or email them, I will not give to you because my money comes from my donor advice fund. And and it is so easy to do that that you just need to pay attention. I you you can't make me jump through hoops to give you money. I mean, you can try, but I'm not going to do it. So I actually have somebody who I told uh I said to her, she wanted me to give money for a um, it was a sponsorship for dinner. And I said, I will do it, but I know that you, and I'm telling the fundraiser, I know you are aware that you need to have that information on the paperwork. It's two lines of copy, it's nothing. You need to make that on on your site so that I can immediately check the box and say, I'm sending it in via my donor advice fund. Instead, I go through these sites and I put in all the information, hoping that at the end, this is online, hoping that at the end it's going to say, check the box if you're sending in a check or to your donor advice fund, and then it's not there and it says I have to call somebody and I'm not going to do it. So I told her, I said, you need to change that. And if you don't do it, it's an easy change. But if you don't do it, I will not give you the money that I'm planning on sending you. And it's been six months and they haven't done it yet.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

Yeah. And and do you do you see any signs that you know that this might be shifting, I guess? Because all the figures, certainly in the US, are that the the growth of DAFs has been absolutely phenomenal. Do you think there's more of an awareness within the fundraising profession that this is an area that they need to kind of focus on more?

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Yeah, it's unfortunate. There's an awareness, which is great, but the awareness is, oh, there's all those people who have a bunch of money that they're warehousing and we need to get to it. And they're covering up the names of the organizations and they're trying to do it secretly, which by the way, all the research that we're seeing, uh there's a little of it being done now, just disproves that. So, so, but and and and how do we get into them? We want someone to give us a list of all the funds so we can go solicit them all day long. And and that's not okay. That's I think that's offensive too. So um I I I wish that they were saying there's all this money there. One out of every uh, I think they said about 27% of all individual donations now are coming through donor advice funds. And and so, yes, we have to pay attention to it, but all we have to do is include a little box on our forms. All we have to do is not make make it easy for them to give. And and I don't think that's asking a lot, but I do not see it moving anywhere near as quickly as it should.

SPEAKER_02 50:17

I'm aware that we're almost out of time. I just wanted to ask finally, just on the sort of the wider context for the book and the work that you're doing around fundraising. It it feels as though in the last certainly couple of years that the whole um area of fundraising has become a bit more polarized or kind of more contentious, because there's a whole debate that's happening between, you know, I guess to characterize them at two extremes, you know, school of thought that says, actually, it should be about the donor, put the donor front and centre, think about what it you know they want and and kind of just do what you can to meet that. And then there's a another school of thought increasingly saying, actually, no, we need to go radically in the other uh direction and actually, you know, say it's not at all about donors. We need to de-center donors entirely. And you know, yes, they should give, but they shouldn't expect you know their wishes to be paid, you know, taken into account. We shouldn't have to say thank you to them, all that sort of stuff. Um, and and what do you make of that sort of debate between you know the donor-centric view and the community-centric view? Do you think there is something useful in there in that middle ground, or do you think there's a danger that it's kind of turning this into uh an area where it's difficult for people to find common ground?

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Yeah, I think a lot of this comes from the frustration that it's not easier to raise money. And so we're just gonna blame. So let's blame people on both sides. Let's blame this person or say that we have to get beaten up by a donor who's being inappropriate, or whatever. Just I think this is completely um uh just general uh uh thinking about human human nature. Like, and you and the best way I can suggest to do that is to think about yourself as a donor. Everybody is a donor, everyone's given something at some point. It doesn't matter how much money you have. You've given something, you volunteered, you've done whatever. So, what would you want it to be? Would you want it to be, would you want to be pandered to on one side, or would you want to be uh told they won't say thank you on the other side? You wouldn't want either of those. I think if we went and queried, you know, whatever, a million people, 999,000 of them would say, Well, that's ridiculous. Of course, we would want to be thanked, and we also wouldn't want to be pandered to. So I think I I see a lot of that one side or the other thing as kind of noise. And uh and and I wish that the energy that was being put into arguing was put into change instead.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Lisa, it's been absolutely great to talk. Um before I finally let you go, is there anything beyond the the book? Obviously, I'll put links in the show notes to that and places where people can find you and your website. But are there any particular things you've got coming up that you want to alert people to or let people know about?

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Well, I'll be speaking. Uh I speak all the time, probably every week or so, there's something on. So if you go to my website at lisagreer.com, L-I-S-A-G-R-E-E-R.com, you'll be able to find out about my books. You'll be able to find out where I'm going to be presenting, what webcasts are coming up and podcasts and and in in-person events, those kinds of things. Um, I also do a tip of the week every Tuesday that comes out and it's completely free. You can sign up for that. You can also sign up for our um uh our uh regular newsletter, which at the premium level, which is not very expensive, allows you to have uh uh a really a personal conversation in a very small group with me every month. And we do have quite a few people from the UK who are part of that.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

Great. All right, well, I'll put links to uh in the show notes to places where people can find all of that and definitely recommend that they do. But just remains to say thanks ever so much for finding the time to come on the podcast and certainly you know wish you all the best with it. And hopefully at some point we will uh manage to meet in person in the future.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

I would love that. Thank you. Take care, bye.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

Okay, great. Well, my thanks again to Lisa for finding the time to come on the podcast. It was really interesting to have a chance to talk to her. Um I'll put links in the show notes, as promised, to places where you can find more about Lisa's work and her books and any upcoming events. Uh, I'll put some links to things that I've written that might be of interest. Uh in general, if you're interested in philanthropy and civil society issues, do check out the website at whyphilanthropymatters.com where you can find articles, news updates about things I've been doing, all the back issues of this podcast, and much, much more. Uh, if you're interested in keeping in touch with me more broadly, um do follow me on social media. Best place is probably LinkedIn these days, although I'm considering uh giving Blue Sky a bit more of a go after sort of initial exploratory effort uh a year or so ago. So maybe uh get in touch with me on there, and that might encourage me to do that a little bit more. If you've got ideas for people that I could talk to on the podcast um or themes that we could cover in the future, do drop me a line. The email address uh is there on the website. Um I do do my best to reply to those emails. Uh I'm not I will promise that I'm not always entirely brilliant at doing that, so please feel free to follow up if you feel as though uh you've uh sent me an email at some point in time and I haven't got back to you. Other than that, just like, subscribe, tell all your friends about it, leave us a nice review on wherever you get your podcast, and we'll see you next time. Bye.