SPEAKER_01 0:37

Hello, you're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast. This is the podcast where we try to put philanthropy in context. I'm your host, as ever, Rodri Davis, and this week we have a conversation with Mandy Van Daven and Chiara Cataneo. Now, both Mandy and Chiara are seasoned philanthropy consultants who've worked with a huge variety of organizations across a massive range of topics. I'm not going to go into vast detail on that, but certainly if you check out their bios in the links provided in the show notes, you'll see some of the organizations they've worked with and some of the projects and topics that they've worked on, which I'm sure will be very much of interest to people listening to this podcast. But I sat down with Mandy and Chiara a few weeks back to talk in particular about some work that they've been doing for a while now, looking at the idea of narrative power and narrative infrastructure. So we sat down, I mean, first of all, to talk about what narrative power actually is in the context of Philumped B and civil society and how you go about developing it and what kind of tools you develop in the course of doing that and what it requires. We talked about whether the focus of this work was on using narratives that are relevant to the sorts of cause areas that philanthropic organizations work on, or whether it was also in part about developing narratives about philanthropy itself. And I think it's a bit of both, and we talked a bit about what some of the narratives about philanthropy are that are most prevalent and kind of how potentially those needed to be changed and what could be achieved through doing that. And we talked about the importance of working at an ecosystem level and kind of fostering collaboration because narrative is something that's very difficult to do in isolation, either as a funder or as a civil society organization. We talked about infrastructure and what kind of infrastructure is required to enable civil society organizations to be able to use narrative as a tool and what role then funders can play in building and supporting that infrastructure. And we also talked about some of the uh questions about whether trying to harness narrative power requires more of a willingness to expand time horizons within philanthropy and perhaps change the way you think about measurement, because narrative is often something that happens quite a long way upstream, and whilst it can have huge um potential payoffs, um, those are not always measurable in the sorts of time frames that often philanthropic funders have kind of historically worked to. And we also talked about what that meant in terms of some of the issues that we're currently facing, where you know, I ironically, almost kind of almost a catch-22, which is that there are issues like the climate crisis or uh global inequality or racial injustice where fundamental change is needed, and therefore there's an argument that narrative would be a powerful tool for doing that. But if that is quite a sort of slow burn thing to do and the urgency of those uh issues is very great, then how do you kind of balance out um the two sides of that tension? So without further ado, let's go into the conversation. Uh, I hope you'll find it really interesting. It was uh, you know, I did, and it was great to have a chance to talk to Mandy and Chiara. Um, I'll be back at the end just for the usual bit of housekeeping and signposting uh to other things that you might be interested in. Okay, great. Well, I'm here with Mandy Van Daven and Chiara Cataneo. Hi there to both of you.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Hey, it's good to be here.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Hello, Rodri.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Hi there. Well, yeah, really great to have a chance to talk on the podcast. And we're here today to talk about narrative power and the importance of narrative infrastructure, which I think is a really fascinating topic within sort of philanthropy and civil society. And I know it's something you've both done a lot of work on and kind of written about and spoken about a lot recently. Um so maybe the best starting point, um, Mandy, perhaps, is just for you to say a bit about what narrative power actually is, what it is we're talking about, why it is important for civil society and how it became something that that you're really involved in.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Yeah, I'm I'm always glad to start with this question about definitions, Roger, because the the truth is that there's a lot of confusion, right, in both philanthropy spaces and and movement spaces about what exactly narrative is and and kind of how it plays a role in either accelerating or standing in the way of the transformations that we seek. And so when when I talk about narrative, what I'm referring to are the deeply held beliefs that shape how people interpret and construct the world. So narratives are meaning-making systems that include the you know knowledge and emotions and observations and experiences that we use to legitimate what we believe is true now and to also determine what we think is possible for the future. Um and you know, when it comes to narrative, it can often be a bit conceptual. And so an example to sort of make that more concrete is I often say to people that, you know, we live in a world that's presented to us through binaries, like you're either good or bad, you're a man or a woman, you're oriented towards individualism or or collectivism. And and we often hear these things presented in this either-or way, this kind of zero-sum equation where when one side wins, the other side loses. And the the binary is a way that we see narrative at play in the world. Because when we stop to think about it, most of us probably will admit that we have done good things and we have also made mistakes. Um, most of us will know that we want personal autonomy, but we're also very aware of how meaningful our our families and our communities are to us. And so when we, you know, sort of step back and reflect and look more deeply, we see that the perspectives that we have have really been shaped by this kind of binary zero-sum narrative, um, you know, despite the reality of how we live our lives. And so when it comes to philanthropy and social movements, you know, often we hear people say this word narrative when what they're talking about is is one particular story, like a film or a news article. Um, and then other times people say narrative when they're talking about the messaging that their organization is using for a given campaign or you know, as a part of the fundraising that they're doing. And, you know, while these communications tactics do have the ability to influence short-term incremental changes, um, you know, maybe it helps uh an organization to bring more dollars in the door or to uh you know support a particular policy it's it's trying to change. Um, you know, it's a bit inaccurate to say that those things on their own are really going to change a narrative that's as deeply ingrained as the gender binary. Um and it's it's also unrealistic to think that these tactics are going to contribute to um, you know, long-term narrative power building in the absence of a collective and coordinated and sustained strategy. So, you know, that kind of continuous work really requires an ongoing level of resources that will enable us to not just shift these deeply entrenched worldviews, but also to hold the line once that reorientation and our shared understanding has been achieved. And, you know, uh again, by way of like giving an example to concretize, um, you know, when you ask a lot of people to give you an example of what a narrative change success has been, many folks are gonna point to the campaign to secure marriage equality in the United States. Um they're gonna point to, you know, the sort of strategic communications work around the messaging of love is love, um, that was used to uh affirm the social validity of romantic relationships between same-sex couples and to advocate for um the same legal rights that were being afforded to straight couples. And so, you know, the marriage equality campaign was supported by various story storytelling efforts that were um, you know, both nonfiction and pop culture based, like most people are probably familiar with the TV show Will and Grace. Um, and then on the philanthropy side of things, many of the sort of more well-known organizations that were involved in the marriage equality movement were actually being funded by a particular foundation that was started by a wealthy white gay man. And so while it's absolutely true that many people's hearts and minds were changed as a result of that campaign around being more tolerant of a particular subset of, you know, gay and lesbian people acquiring the legal right to marry, um, you know, I think we can look at the sort of mistreatment and maligning of queer and trans people in America today and have a good amount of skepticism about whether or not the narrative has actually changed. Um, and then, you know, when you look at the fact that the current US Supreme Court is, you know, well positioned to overturn that ruling less than a decade after it passed, you know, we we have further evidence that we would probably benefit from having a more rigorous understanding about, you know, what narrative is, how that work is different from strategic communications and campaigning. Um, and we would no doubt benefit from a sharper analysis and a clarity of vision about, you know, what narrative change success looks like, who gets to determine it, and and what it's going to take to resource this work in a way that's both durable and and deep.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yeah, that's I mean, really interesting stuff. And there's lots I want to pick up on there, I think, um, about the the way in which focusing on narrative might change the ways in which we think about doing philanthropy and and some of the ways in which we sort of judge uh success or you know the approaches we use. Um but before we come to that, Chiara, I'd really like to pick up on something. I mean, where Mandy was talking about narrative there, the examples um were sort of focusing around developing narratives that um relate to specific cause areas and kind of go wider than that, but set the the environment within which you can achieve social change. I guess one thing I'm really interested in is to what extent in the work that you've done on narrative, is part of it about changing our narratives about philanthropy itself? You know, is this a tool that we need to turn back on the very notion of philanthropy and sort of question what role it plays in in society? And and you know, if that is the case, what's your sense of what the most kind of prevalent narratives about philanthropy are that we need to to challenge or to change?

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah, so we have been we have been uh observing a lot of um a lot of you know talk and a lot of importance, uh growing importance around narratives. Um and as you say, they tend to focus on work that is more building or constructing narratives on certain issues rather than on philanthropy itself. And if we think, if we transport this on a per even on a personal level, it is definitely easier to focus on narratives that are outside of ourselves because this distance allows a certain degree of comfort and the chance of quickly disengaging when something touches what is um you know what is more relating to our structure of being and of working. So I think this is the same in the philanthropy sector. Most of the work has been focusing on you know influencing or building external narratives on certain issues, and this coupled with um the interest and the focus of philanthropy on measurable or on measurable outputs has resulted in a tendency to not reflect on the narratives within the philanthropy itself. But of course, these philanthropy these narratives are the narratives that deeply shape not just um the way that philanthropy sees itself, so the role it perceives it has in the world, but also all the operations um within philanthropy. So the the the design of all the actions and practices that then uh set the relations of philanthropy with all the different stakeholders. So we do feel that there is a need and a growing interest uh in philanthropy to work on the narratives uh that are shaping philanthropy itself. And some of the examples were shared earlier by Mandy already. So these are deeply ingrained narratives within philanthropy that are that need to be first of all surfaced and then uh collectively analyzed and reformed or um you know revolutionized. So, for example, yes, the binary uh mentioned the binary narratives mentioned early, and then there's uh many narratives uh pertaining different fields. So, for example, um the role that philanthropy sees itself as playing in in the world. Um so is it uh a narrative of philanthropy as an agenda setter or as a resource steward? Um who decides this? Uh the issue of power, for example, the the narrative of domination, of control over reciprocity and shared uh decision making, or the overarching narrative of resources. So the notion of uh a scarcity of resources available versus an abundance of resources, and we're not just talking about financial resources, but about overall um resources, the narrative of competition versus collaboration, for example, the the uh which again translates into very practical uh actions um such as you know the typical uh pitching or the grant making uh that or that attends to put you know a frame of competition between organizations uh that want to get the same, I know, want to get access to the same resources. Another narrative is the narrative of time that I'm uh hoping that we will get into uh more later. So the this the urgency versus long-term report that are often again, you know, uh presented and framed as uh one or the other. So these are all narratives that are deeply ingrained and that should be addressed in order to to philanthropy to to be able to exercise its uh full role and full potential.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yeah, absolutely. And as you say, there's there's other things to pick up on that. I'd love to pick up on that question about time frames um a little bit further on. Um I mean, one thing that you you mentioned in passing there about narratives about philanthropy that I'd I'd like to sort of pick up on specifically as well, is around what implications a focus on narrative has for how we think about sort of goal setting and and um and measurement within philanthropy, because it it strikes me one of the things it fundamentally demands is that you get away, at least to some extent, from the idea of setting very rigid goals and expectations about outcomes and time frames associated with them, because that's just not really how narrative works. And and Mandy, I wondered if you could say something about that. Um, particularly, you know, with the example you gave earlier about the the sort of social change around equality of marriage uh and and equality for um LGBTQ people. Um, obviously, kind of in a way, the most fundamental change that has been uh achieved there is is through long-term narrative change, but it it strikes me that that would have been very difficult to do if funders from the outset had had the same sort of mindset they often apply to programmatic funding. Um, is that something you see kind of more broadly when it comes to this question of narrative?

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah, I mean, one of the more popular questions in relationship to you know narrative change and resourcing narrative change work is people asking this question about impact measures. Um and, you know, are we just kind of throwing our money out there in the world with the hope that it will do something if we don't have log frames and very specific ways of looking at um you know milestones and measurement? And I often encourage folks to, you know, sort of take a step back and say, well, well, what's driving this trend toward formalizing impact measures, um, particularly ones that are quantitative, because the reality is that it has not always been this way. Um, this has not been the sort of um primary way of operating within philanthropy, um, you know, sort of in the hundred or so years of it, its existence. And it's actually not the primary way that philanthropy takes place today, despite the fact that there's a lot of visibility around this issue. Um, and for me, you know, one of the benefits of being part of the generation that grew up as the internet was emerging, is that it it helped many of us to develop a healthy skepticism around the limitations of quantitative data. Um, and you know, when you look, for example, at the data that your social media analytics give you, like how many followers you have or how many shares a particular post get, uh, you still have to apply your own interpretation to what that data could mean. Um, you know, how that data might relate to some future action that you may take to serve a particular purpose, um, because one data set alone doesn't really allow you to draw meaningful conclusions without greater context that brings that data to life and turns it into a relevant and a useful story, which then clearly has uh implications around why it is that it would be of benefit for folks in philanthropy to understand narrative and narrative change, because how we interpret something is based on how we understand it, and that is um taking place in part through the lens of narrative. So, you know, in our current moment as well, I think the the complexity of the systems and the circumstances that we're operating within and and the goals that we're seeking to achieve are pretty highly misaligned from the types types of impact measures that people um that a lot of people in philanthropy um want and and that make them happy. And you know, I think what what folks are ultimately looking for is certainty, right? And the the you know sad fact for folks who are looking for certainty is that that's not the reality of how change happens. You know, the the future is necessarily uncertain. None of us can can say with with absolute clarity what even our day is going to look like today. Um, and while that can feel a bit stressful, it it's also actually a good thing in many ways because it means that there are a lot of really wonderful possibilities that we can bring into being. And these, you know, sort of apocalyptic stories that we hear so much about these days are actually not an inevitability. Um but you know, it's it it's said all of the time, but it it kind of bears repeating that that transformation is not a linear process. And when we're talking about complex systems change work and and narrative is a system, we we can't operate with the expect uh with the expectation that that we're going to know all of the answers. The beginning, or that we're going to be able to engineer an outcome, um, you know, particularly one on a societal level, uh, with with a strategy that was designed by a single foundation or or you know, even a handful of foundations. Um, and and I think we know actually that these are not reasonable expectations, despite the fact that many folks act like they are. Um, and so in in conversations that I have with people about how to evaluate narrative change, I like to ask them, uh, you know, when when you made the decision to invest your, you know, your time, your energy, and your money in raising a child, is that because you knew precisely how that child was going to turn out? Like, did you know who that child was going to be when they were five years old, when they were 15 years old, or how about 50 years old, right? Like, so far the answer has always been no. And I think the answer, um, the reason the answer has been no is because we all know that there are just too many uncontrollable factors that are going to influence how um how that child may be, right? And and we know that it's kind of an absurd thing to even think that we should be trying to figure out. Um, and so instead, you know, people ask better questions like what are the conditions that are more likely to give a child the best possible chance to have a fulfilling life? Or, you know, what can we do to cultivate those conditions? And so if we kind of consider that in the frame of philanthropy and how foundations are contributing to something like narrative infrastructure and power building, it would really probably be better to look at questions like how many funders are investing in movement-directed experiments that enable learning and iteration? Um, you know, things like to what degree do social movement actors report having the resources that they need to strategize, to coordinate, and take action together? Because those are the types of impact evaluation frameworks that really are going to allow us to do our job as resource stewards with greater excellence. And then if we're doing our jobs better, that's going to be a force multiplier for the work of reshaping the narratives that got us here and adopting the ones that we need to build a better future.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things you mentioned there that I'd love to pick up on is in you mentioned about the the importance thinking in terms of systems, and you mentioned in passing the idea of collaboration, and it strikes me that one of the dominant narratives about philanthropy is that very often historically we've thought in terms of individual organizations and funders being able to do things on their own to set goals and then to attribute inputs to outputs. And I wondered, Chiara, whether you could say something about the how taking a narrative approach or thinking about narrative actually demands that you start out thinking at a sort of ecosystem level and what that means in practice. I mean, are there challenges to doing that? You know, is the philanthropy world currently very well set up to allow for that sort of collaboration, or are there things we need to be doing to make it more possible?

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yeah, well, I would start by highlighting how the ecosystem approach is a is a is a vital approach. And uh again, you know, once again, bringing it back to our lived experiences, um, we do, you know, we do live in in systems, in community. We don't live our lives as individuals um alone and separate from the rest of the world. So the ecosystem approach is the only approach that um that allows us to focus on the idea of a collective future and the collective future that we can together intentionally build and resource in in the case of philanthropy. So we have to think of narrative work as an individual, not an individual uh and single action, but really a collective effort that has to be uh sustained and resourced by multiple actors and through time. So, in terms of challenges, existing challenges, um, of course there are many, uh, but I would rather focus on how to overcome them. Um so if we think of the of the way that most of uh philanthropy support is currently structured, of course, there is a great need of uh you know changing again the narrative and changing the overall approach so towards desiloing this the support, towards a support that is more intersectional, so it is not uh intended only on supporting a single organization or a single individual, but um is rather across across just across sectors, even not just within a sector. And this would also, I mean, it's often presented as a problem, like as something that has to be overcome, a challenge for philanthropy, but actually adopting this approach would also go supporting some of um some features in philanthropy that are uh a concern. So for example, supporting different individuals and organizations that are playing different roles in the ecosystem would mean that also the risk of supporting a certain cause is spread across, um is spread between different organizations, uh, different supporting organizations, and at the same time supporting individuals and organizations that play different roles. So that would also allow for greater impact. So I'm thinking, for example, that if you adopt an ecosystem approach, you could be supporting uh individuals and organizations that have roles such as you know, experimenters or more uh conservative approaches. You could be supporting uh you know early responders, emergency responders, storytellers, networks, uh, infrastructure builders, and resourcing at different levels of operations and organizing, supporting collaborative initiatives, um, so multiple roles and multiple identities. Of course, this would mean you know, besides the de-siloing and the intersectional approach, we would need philanthropy to accept, as Mandy was saying before, accept a certain level of uncertainty, which is already there but is not there on paper. Um so accepting that there are some unforeseen elements uh in the change that we want to bring about, but uh and and also promote diversity and include into the support some actors or individual, both individuals and organizations that might not be the regular, the traditional or the most obvious um actors. Uh it would mean um accept uh context specificities um which are not always so easy to uh to detect, and also it would mean supporting um multiplicity. So in especially when philanthropic organizations want to want to engineer uh the outcomes and want to identify from the very beginning uh who will be the actors bringing about this outcome, this might might add an element of complexity. And it would also entail a deep listening of of the context and of the actors of the context. And you know, meaning also a quick reaction, uh, accepting like we we hear so many times, uh, you know, you are the experts, but that doesn't always you know this phrase being told to potential uh potential organizations being supported. And but this you are the expert is not always translated into we will then you know support you in the way that you feel that change can can happen. Um and again, you know, another another um yeah, another point that Mandy touched upon earlier is the measurement, um and is not which is you know often associated to uh like how do we how do we measure the impact of narrative work, how do we assess uh how successful it is. Uh so and and this also leads to you know the narrative around value. How how what is it that we are measuring and what is it we are identifying as valuable across time?

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Yeah, really, really interesting. As you say, there's kind of there's a lot of of complexity, but actually when you map it out, there are all sorts of ways in which you can see what the different elements of that ecosystem are. And one one element that you mentioned there in passing is infrastructure, and I'd really like to pick up on that in a way because it's often the sort of unglamorous but really necessary part of achieving things in philanthropy. And and I wondered, Mandy, when it comes to trying to develop narrative power, what sort of infrastructure is necessary to allow civil society organizations to harness that power, to allow funders to fund it, and to make it sustainable and something that we can kind of carry on longer term?

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Yeah, I mean, this is a question that I get asked by funders almost every day. Um, and and again, right, like let's let's talk about sort of what are the definitions then that we're using, because often people use terms like narrative infrastructure, but but they use it without defining what they mean when they use it. So uh, you know, a part of the the research that I did uh um a couple of years ago with with some funding from the Catali Foundation was to work with movement leaders and and narrative practitioners and funders to to develop definitions of concepts like like narrative, narrative power, narrative infrastructure. So I guess I'll just you know sort of start by naming that and saying that you know the definitions that I'll I'll share are are not just mine, right? They're the um product of of many folks' experience in intellectual labor. So the the way that I define narrative infrastructure is as a decentralized set of dynamic relationships that work together to create the conditions for building narrative power. And then narrative power, right, is the the ability to determine which meaning-making systems people are using to interpret and construct the world. So what is that, what does infrastructure look like then in a narrative context? So it looks like the people, the knowledge, the school, the sorry, tools, the skills, the systems, and the practices that enable individuals and organizations and networks to strategize, coordinate, and take action together in a coherent way and to do so across issues, identities, sectors, borders. And you know, since changing beliefs and behaviors at scale is not going to be achieved by a single organization, a single movement, a single campaign, um, it means that this infrastructure is, like you just said, Rodri, it's not a nice to have. It's critical for doing the work successfully. And not having it is like giving people money to design fancy sports cars, but not the money to buy the parts and labor that's actually going to allow them to be built, you know, and not money to build roads, to maintain those roads for those cars to drive on. So one of the roles that foundations can play to fund this kind of unsexy and largely unmeasurable, but nonetheless vital things that groups need is um to sort of see this work as the work that underpins much of the work that is currently being funded, right? So without the ability to come together, to co-create together, to co-strategize together, and then to be able to move the the refined narratives out in the world, we're gonna be stuck where we're at, right? And so Chiara and I, we were at a recent convening of more than a hundred global narrative practitioners. And what was interesting about that, I mean, there were many things that were interesting about that, but but one of the things was that over the course of three days, you know, there were sort of themes that kept coming up again and again around what were their highest priorities for funding. And some of those themes were things like convening spaces that enable them to build durable relationships, to, you know, have time for that collective visioning, um, you know, to have the ability to share skills and knowledge with one another. Um, you know, the they prioritize things like uh funding for the coordination of networks and other collective formations that support folks to be able to work together across these kind of arbitrary silos that philanthropy has put people in. They talked about funding to support process and methodology rather than kind of products and predetermined outcomes. And then one of the things that I think was actually really important too is that they talked about the need for resources to engage in practices that enable healing and solidarity. And the reason that I think that that's important is, you know, it sort of brings to mind for me something that uh a prominent narrative strategist said to me a few years ago when I was a grant maker, which is, you know, we were in conversation about um, you know, potentially bringing the grantees that that I was funding together. And they said, you know, I don't know why funders keep hosting grantee convenings and acting like we don't all know each other already. The reason we're not working together isn't because we don't know each other, it's because we do, right? It's because there are unresolved conflicts that are standing in the way of our ability to collaborate. And for me, that was like a huge light bulb moment because what I realized was like, oh, I'm making assumptions without even realizing that I'm making assumptions. And so I started to go, well, you know, if I'm making incorrect assumptions about this thing, what are the other assumptions that I'm making that I need to sort of identify and interrogate? Um, and I can tell you, right, from experience, that that checking our assumptions and being curious is really a game changer.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Yeah, and just as a follow-up to that, I mean, one of the things that I've certainly noted in other areas of philanthropy where people are talking about the value of infrastructure is there's often a gap, unfortunately, between that argument for the for the importance of it and the value of it and getting people to fund it, because it is quite a difficult thing sometimes to sell because it's at one level removed and it almost feels you know too abstract. In the the case of narrative infrastructure, what's the the current picture look like in terms of the willingness of funders to kind of accept that argument and to fund it, or is there still more work to be done to get that infrastructure funded?

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Yeah, I mean, there's certainly more work, and you know, to be honest, narrative infrastructure is not the only infrastructure that's lacking. Like again, you know, if you point to sort of the US politics right now that are going on and some of the things that that the Biden administration has been prioritizing, they've been prioritizing basic infrastructure, you know, things like making sure that people have clean water, right? So it's it's uh an ongoing um challenge, regardless of kind of what sector you're you're working in, right? And then I also think that something that's really important to name in the context of philanthropy, you know, I sometimes jokingly and not jokingly say the funny thing about philanthropy is that it it funders wouldn't fund themselves based on the ways that their own institutions are set up and operating, because the reality is that many of these foundations are being held together by like bubblegum and shoestring. Their own, you know, operational infrastructure is not that sound. And so if we were to take the various criteria that funders use to vet grantees and apply that very same criteria to their own, you know, strategies, ways of operating, they probably would not actually meet their own criteria. And that has to do with not having that sense of the value of infrastructure in part, right? And so I think that that's something that's important to name is that the infrastructure is not just weak in, you know, civil society and social movements. The infrastructure is weak across the board.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Yeah, that's a really interesting challenge, actually. Um I just wanted to come back to something we mentioned before and we were hoping to come back to, which is that question around um sort of time frames. And and one of the things I noticed, Chiara, in something that I read that you wrote, I think, was you picked up on the fact that there's there's an ongoing debate within philanthropy more broadly about the sort of tension between the urgency of some of the issues that are out there and the time frames that philanthropy often operates over, but that that's particularly um sort of a problem potentially when it comes to narrative, because a lot of those issues where you would want to apply a narrative approach are the ones that are very acute and where people want to see change quickly. But narrative isn't necessarily something that lends itself to sort of short-term gains and they actually have to be able to have a bit of patience. Maybe you could you'd say something about how organizations can navigate that that potential challenge.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Yeah, so I have issues with this framing of urgency versus patience or short-term versus long-term, because for me that's an uh a non-existing dilemma. So I think uh yes, narrative work spans, um, you know, it's intergenerational and it it happens across decades. Uh and in order to see the the final or you know the the um uh a more solid or concrete result or something that we could bring as an example, yes, it takes that a long time to achieve it. But I think the um the the the important thing is there's two key uh notions. First of all, is that uh it's already happening, is not something that uh philanthropy or organizations or individuals are not already doing narrative work. Uh so we we're talking about adding a level of intentionality, of strategy, of clear resourcing this work. So that's the first point. It's already happening. And the second point is that there is value in the process itself. We don't need to wait 50 years to see uh the value of narrative work. And again, you know, it goes back to what we were talking earlier about what are we measuring and what is important to observe across time. So it's not necessarily the output, but it's the process itself that has value because you are building the infrastructure, you are building the connections, you are achieving results as you go. So I think we should move from saying narrative work as you know, oh, it's gonna take 50 years. So let's focus on this, you know, supporting this as a small emergency intervention. Uh, I think the two can happen simultaneously. And again, you know, if we have an ecosystem approach, there will be resources to support all of the work that is needed, and that includes narrative work as well. I think this is also is is also you know, going back to what I was saying earlier about the fact that uh uh it's work that is already happening, and you know, the there is, and when we started by saying that narratives is uh is a hot topic and is a topic that you know has been has been discussed um in the philanthropy space for for for many years now, I think this could be capitalized, so um we need to uh to rethink uh the way in which we conceive narrative work and and also uh to maybe have conversations and space to for people to understand better the difference between campaigning, uh advocacy work and narrative change work, so that it's uh it will help to understand the importance of it in the long term.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Yeah, absolutely. And I I really love that point about learning to value the process and not just the outcome. Because I think in in lots of areas of philanthropy it is, as you say, it's a problem that too often the things that are required to work towards the outcome are just seen as externalities and aren't measured or valued. And actually, if you valued those, you wouldn't need to wait for that outcome all the time. You know, the outcome can still come, but you will you'll get value at all points uh along that. Um I'm aware that we're probably coming towards the end of the time, and I don't want to take up too much time. So I just wanted to to round things off. By asking both of you, you know, what does your work on narrative actually sort of look like at the moment? Where are the areas, you know, in terms of the things that we've been talking about, you know, infrastructure working to at an ecosystem level to bring uh organizations together to collaborate? What's the sort of main focus of what you're doing in in practical terms and what have you got coming up over the coming months? Um, Mandy, maybe you could say a bit first.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

Yeah, I mean, so one of the things that uh Kiara and I are working on is that we are facilitating the emergence of a community of practice um which enables funders to cultivate the conditions in philanthropy to resource narrative power. It's called elemental. Um, and as a part of that work, what we have been doing has been, you know, sort of having conversations with funders to get a better sense of where particular individuals and where particular institutions are at with regard to their narrative work and where the um focus should really be of this initiative. And then another part of that work has really been about, you know, having conversations like these, where it's um helping to uh share this analysis that, like I said earlier, is is not just you know our analysis. It's an analysis that's been built on a multi-year research and design process that has involved, you know, literally hundreds of of people who are who are working in philanthropy and and in civil society and social movements. Uh and so, you know, for us in the the sort of nascent stages of of this work um together, we're really hoping to um to provide this support to people who are seeking it because there's a lot of um energy, there's a lot of hunger to engage in this work, and there's a lot of desire to get it right, you know, and so as people either enter into um uh, you know, resourcing narrative change, or they kind of deepen their their practice, um, you know, we wanted to make sure that there was actually kind of a space that would hold that and that would help people to to find each other and start to um you know build that trust and build those connections to be able to to support each other and frankly organize together within the sector.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Yeah, and Chiara, I don't know if you want to add to that and maybe also if there's any sense of the the things that that maybe you would like to see happening or happening more that you know currently there there's not enough of what it is that that philanthropy and funders could be doing more of around this this work.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Yeah, like Mendy was saying, it's a lot of it's a lot of listening and and I think we also put a lot of value in bringing into the conversation perspectives that are not necessarily mainstream, so including perspectives from indigenous peoples, from minorities, from uh communities that are not uh that are not necessarily currently at the center of these conversations, but we do feel that it's important to uh um to hear their voices and for for them to contribute to the conversation as well. So what I would want to see is actually this, you know, uh that uh the conversation is uh broaden and and and it includes also voices uh that are uh currently not so at the forefront. But um meaning also from different geographies and uh from different communities within uh what we call the the the global north. So I would say that that yes, divers and going back to what we were saying before, uh allowing diversity and complexity into these spaces uh is what definitely a goal for our community.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Yeah, absolutely. And uh certainly I'll put links in the show notes to places where people can read more that you've both written about this and places where they can find resources if they want to sort of take action on this. It just remains to say uh thanks ever so much to both of you for for coming on the podcast. It's great to have a chance to talk and to hear about this work, and I'll really look forward to to seeing how it develops over the coming months and years.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Yeah, as will we. Many thanks, Rodri. Thank you so much, Rodri. Great.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

Okay, great. Well, my thanks again to you, Mandy and Chiara, for coming on the podcast. It was great to hear about uh some of the work they've been doing, really interesting to dig into some of the issues and questions about narrative, which is a really fascinating area. Um, I'll put links in the show notes to places where you can find various things that Mandy and Chiara were talking about and things that they've written. Um I also put a couple of things that I've written that might be relevant in there as well, in case you're interested in uh in those. Uh, if you're interested more broadly in issues around philanthropy and civil society, obviously do check out the website at whyphilanthropymatters.com. Um you can find lots of articles there, news updates, place to sign up for the newsletter that comes out every month, and all the back issues of this podcast. So there's loads of stuff on there to be uh getting your teeth into. If you want to follow me on social media, you can do that as well. Uh I'm mostly on LinkedIn these days, but you can still just about find me on X as well, or Twitter, as I should probably uh stubbornly call it. Uh and if you've got ideas for people that I could talk to on the podcast or topics that we could cover, try and do a few more deep dives uh in coming weeks, uh, do drop me a line. You can find contact details uh at the Y Philanthropy Matters website. If you like the podcast, do consider taking a minute or so just to leave a nice review wherever you get your uh podcasts from, because that kind of helps draw attention to it, as long as it's a nice review, of course. Um, and if you know any people that you work with or family members that you think uh might be interested in uh the kinds of things we talk about on here, do also uh spread the good word because um I think personal recommendation also goes a long way as well. Other than that, I will see you next time. Bye, okay, so you can see the microphone.