SPEAKER_01 0:12

You're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast with Roger Davis. Hello, you're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast. This is the podcast where we try to put philanthropy in context. I'm your host, as ever, Rod Davis, and this week we have a conversation with Emma Beeston and Beth Breeze. Now both Emma and Beth are colleagues of mine in a way. One of the things I do with my multiple hats on is work at the Centre for Philanthropy at the University of Kent, which Beth uh founded and runs. And Emma also works part-time there. Um but this wasn't an opportunity just for a cozy little chat. Um Emma and Beth have a new book out uh called Advising Philanthropists, and we had a conversation about that. Um so we talked about the book, uh, what it was that led them to write it, and what the focus is and what they hope people get from it. I mean, obviously, as the name suggests, the core focus of the book is all about the the sometimes mysterious world of philanthropy advice. So we find out through a series of interviews um with philanthropy advisors and kind of insights taken from from those interviews and from wider research what the elements of philanthropy advice are, you know, how much of it is about just kind of straightforward technical details, and how much is about softer skills and talking to donors about you know what their purpose is and what their values are and that kind of thing. Um we talked about at what point in the the journey of philanthropy people are likely to get philanthropy advice um and you know what and what that means in terms of kind of having an ongoing relationship between advisors and donors rather than just sort of one-off bits of advice. Um we talked about where you might find philanthropy advice. You know, some of it comes in mainstream financial institutions, private banks, and wealth management firms, and some of it's given by independent advisors, uh, and some of it also from sort of within the non-profit sector. Uh we talked about what makes for a successful donor-advisor relationship and what the kind of skills might be for uh that make for a successful philanthropy advisor, uh, and what that means in terms of w what it looks like as a career and where people come to philanthropy advice from. You know, some of them come from a fundraising background, but otherwise but others come from other areas. We talked about what some of the biggest challenges are in terms of uh the role of a philanthropy advisor. Um we talked about the role that philanthropy advisors might be able to play in kind of shaping giving uh and addressing some of the wider concerns and critiques about philanthropy at the moment that we'd obviously talked about a lot on the podcast many, many times. Um and obviously key to that is the question of whether philanthropy advisors are there just to reflect the interests of donors and to kind of go with the grain, or whether they actually see part of their role as challenging donors and trying to get them to do things differently. And so without further ado, let's go into the podcast. Um, I will be back at the end for the usual bit of housekeeping. Okay, great. So I'm here with Emma Beeston and Beth Breeze. Hi, both of you. Hello. Hi. Um, and well, you're both uh friends of mine and colleagues who I've known for a long time. Um and it's lovely to have you on the podcast. But the the reason that you're both here is that you've got uh a new book out uh called Advising Philanthropists, um, which we're going to talk about. Uh and as the title suggests, it's all about the uh the occasionally mysterious world of philanthropy advice. Um so I guess a good starting point, Emma, would just be um for you to say a bit for the listeners about what it was that led you to write the book, what um who do you hope reads it, and what do you hope they get out of it?

SPEAKER_02 4:16

So I work as an independent um philanthropy advisor. So I'm working in practice, and Beth obviously has her um research head to this as well. So we we both met when we were working together, co-creating the advising donors module for the University of Kent Masters. And as we were bringing that course together, it's become very, very clear that there really isn't very much written about philanthropy advisors or philanthropy advising. There's lots about philanthropists, there's lots about philanthropy, what how it should be, how it shouldn't be. But actually, advisors are out there doing this work and have been for many years, and there just hasn't been much attention paid to them. So that was where the idea of the book came from to kind of tackle that, to um bring attention to the role. And it's a really interesting topic as well. I know I'm biased, but you know, hopefully we could introduce it to people that really, like you say, don't know much about it, but might be curious.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

And and Beth, yeah, from your point of view, sort of as an academic, what's your your interest in delving more into this topic?

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah, so as Emma says, very keen to show people this world, the mysterious world as you describe it, and to lift the curtain on philanthropy advising. And for me, it's it's also part of a slightly broader project to, I suppose, to de-individualise philanthropy to show that typically donors do not give in isolation. Uh, they don't make their decisions in isolation, they don't act and operate in isolation. And I think there's a growing amount of research and understanding of some of the other people in the philanthropy sphere, like fundraisers, foundation staff, you know, the people working in frontline organizations that are either set up or funded by philanthropists. And it seemed to me that a really key next piece of the jigsaw was to explain about the advisors because they are also part of that world around donors. And when people talk about philanthropy and think about it and critique it, I want them to understand that there is a lot more people involved than just the one donor that they might have heard of. So that was also, in addition to the points Emma made, my motivation for doing this book.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

And for people who are listening who think, oh, that sounds interesting. Um, you know, what is it we're actually talking about when we talk about philanthropy advice? You know, what are some of the key elements of it? Is it just kind of straightforward nuts and bolts? This is how you do it, you set up a foundation and you know, the tax treatment of donations, or or is there more to it? Is it kind of about why you start giving in the first place and what you give to?

SPEAKER_02 6:43

I mean, at its simplest, a philanthropy advisor is a guide that kind of navigates the donor philanthropists through all the different options that you know present themselves as part of working out what it is that they want to do, how they're best going to contribute. And it does combine those aspects that you mentioned. So there is a technical aspect of you know, what are the different approaches, um, what sort of vehicle might you set up, how might you kind of think about, you know, what tools can we use, what frameworks are there to use. So there is that aspect of it, but also um philanthropy is personal, it's about expressing values, and so the advisor is also there to help someone explore kind of their motivations, what they're trying, what their aspirations might be, and it can be um become quite emotional as well. So the advisor is involved in you know, conversations about you know, how do you involve the family? Do you want to, what's this mean for sort of long-term legacy of a family, or sometimes just helping somebody think through their kind of attitude to wealth, their attitude to wealth inequality, and and some of those more personal and political aspects. So the advisor is doing both. They've got the kind of, you know, you want to give and this is a way to do it. And then they're also looking at how do you help someone do that that works for them because that way they'll give more, that way they'll sustain their giving, and that way hopefully as they learn over time and and um develop their philanthropy, then they'll they'll be a much better philanthropist in that space.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

And and Beth, yeah, did you have anything to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah, we for the book we interviewed um 40 uh philanthropy advisors working all over the world in 15 different countries. And and in addition to the points Emma made, one thing that really came through strongly to me was how much knowledge they needed over such a broad area. Because of course they have to understand the client and their family, you know, their corporate, you know, whatever the direct client in front of them is, but they also need to understand the nonprofit sector, how that works, and explain that to the client. And they need a broader understanding of the context within which that nonprofit action works in order to be able to make sensible suggestions and guidance. So, for example, we spoke to one advisor who pointed out that if she had a client who wanted to do something, say, on education, then she needed to be fully up to date on what was happening in the education sector in terms of what government is doing and not doing, and what government might or might not do in the future, as well as what are all the other uh nonprofits and donors doing in that space in order to come up with the most sensible and effective and impactful intervention for her clients. So it's an incredibly broad canvas that advisors have to operate on. And in some ways, they're really quite a typical knowledge worker uh in the current economy. And I didn't know that until I started speaking to them. So I found that quite an interesting insight.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

And and in terms of thinking about you know, philanthropy advice as an industry or as kind of a sub-industry uh in its own right, what what does a standard philanthropy advisor look like? I mean, is is there such a thing? Where do you find these people and kind of where what sort of backgrounds do they come to philanthropy advice from?

SPEAKER_02 9:54

As Beth said, we interviewed lots of advisors for this book, and I think one of the highlights is the variety. There isn't such a thing as one type of philanthropy advisor. They're in different settings. So you have philanthropy advisors in banks or financial services, um, you have them in community foundations, you have them working independently or with in firms, and then you have some non-profit advisory services as well. So it's a huge range, and within that, you've got somebody who might be working just with one family, one family foundation, and you might have someone else who's alongside a donor-advised fund who might have 50, 100 donors that they're supporting. So, therefore, the nature of that advice will be very different in terms of the depth that they can go into and what their role is. And then on top of that, you've got different people with different styles and different approaches. So there's that mixture, and just to further complicate it, you've also got people who are, I would say, offering philanthropy advice who would not label themselves or recognise that as a label at all. So they might be, you know, working in impact and evaluation, or they might be working as a wealth manager, but actually knows a lot about philanthropy. So we've got a bright mixture of lots of people working in in different ways. I what we found from those that we interviewed is that they do share the commonality that they're all trying to help people to give more and to give um in a way that's that's as best they can um to best contribute to what's needed. So that's a real common motivation in philanthropy advisors. Obviously, they they're supportive of philanthropy, they want to encourage more, they want to encourage better philanthropy.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

And and thinking about it from the the point of view of the donor, I mean, there's often a lot of talk about philanthropy being a journey that people go on. So you sort of everybody starts somewhere and has an origin story, um, and then over time tends to get more and more involved in it. From from the research in the book, what was your sense of where people are most likely to end up getting or seeking advice? Is it kind of in those early days when they're figuring out what it is they want to do, or actually is it sort of more sophisticated donors who who are kind of looking for specific bits of advice?

SPEAKER_02 12:20

We don't have a huge, I mean, as I said, the reason for the book is there's not a huge amount of information out there. So I there we do have some research that says people don't seek advice, and and they certainly don't seek advice as often as I think they should be. And you know, there's advice out there, there is a demand, but that some lots of people are seeking advice from from you know from peers, from friends, from others, and that might be fine, that might be great, informed um route, but it might be limited in what they're experiencing in terms of philanthropy advice. So I think we definitely have um work to do in raising the profile of the profession and encouraging more people to seek advice. Again, we've got some research that younger people are more inclined to seek advice, so that's a good trend to see. Um, talking to um the different advisors, they are advising people on all aspects of the journey. Um, so you know, personally, I often work with people at that early stage where they're trying to work out, you know, they kind of know they want to be philanthropic, they might have some general ideas, but they're not quite sure, you know, what they want to do. But, you know, some people that we interviewed have been working with, you know, a family for many, many years, and it is about um working alongside them through that journey. And then there's quite an interesting point that we we talk about in the book about kind of when do you stop? You know, when do you decide that you're not needed anymore? Um, you might be helping um your client kind of seek more specialist advice as they kind of develop their focus area, or you might be helping them employ a member of staff to deliver, you know, something, or you might just say you're on your own now, you know what you're doing, and I'm leaving you to it. So there's different endpoints as well, which I think is is quite interesting, but it's definitely about supporting along a longer journey.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

And and one of the things in the book you talk about is, you know, what are the the factors that make for successful advice or particularly sort of successful relationship between uh an advisor and a client they're working with? What are some of those things that actually where people have had long-term relationships with donors that have gone really well that have made that that work effectively?

SPEAKER_02 14:35

I don't think it's a surprise, but obviously trust is hugely important. Um so that the skills that the advisor are bringing, as Beth said, some of it is knowledge, but there's also the people skills that is about the ability to listen, the ability to build rapport, you know, to talk about quite deep subjects and to build that trust so that you can be working alongside them and really understand what they're looking for. And then, but also importantly, being in that position where you are bringing some challenge as well. You're not just kind of bringing out of them what they want, you're adding knowledge about the sector, the different approaches, um, the ethics and um and the um issues that charities are dealing with, so that you're um working alongside developing their knowledge as well. So that is key to the relationship, I think, is the trust and then the mutual respect that means you can have that depth of conversation um and work together in a way that's positive. I think we also explore in the book some of the art of that because that's tricky. Of you know, when do you let your client kind of when do you guide them and when do you let them make their own mistakes? And how much do you kind of encourage and build their confidence? And how much do you bring in here are all this range of different options that now I'm going to overwhelm you with? So it's about getting the balance right. You've got to judge the pace and you've got to judge, you know, when you bring in different information and when you challenge. And I think that's that art when we, as I say, interviewed all the advisors, that comes across really clearly that they're very thoughtful in their practice and very skilled in working out how you balance um some of those aspects of how you um how much you kind of serve the client and how much you challenge them. And then some other sort of ethical considerations about kind of who are you working with? You know, does it do you have to like them? You know, maybe you don't, and maybe that's okay. And some people very much want to say, you know, I need to align with my clients' values, and I want to, it'll help if we share the same worldview. But does that mean that the only people that get advice are the ones that you like? So I think there's some really interesting um reflections that practitioners have to consider for themselves in their own practice, let alone what they're what they're doing in their work.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

That is really interesting because I guess there's always a danger, isn't there, in philanthropy of preaching to the choir and spending all of the time with the people you agree with. And I guess also from an advisor's point of view, if there's a donor they don't especially warm to, but they know that if they weren't providing advice, their giving would be even more problematic or not something they agree with, then is there a kind of moral duty or a compunction to offer the advice so that you know you get the better version of it, which is yeah, I think a big challenge. Um sort of building on what you're saying there about the the art of philanthropy advice, I'm kind of um interested then in terms of what kind of skills do you think that philanthropy advisors need to be good at the job? Um, and kind of you know, where do they tend to get those from? I mean, are they how many of them are people who've come into it from a background uh on the fundraising side or on the grant making side? I mean, what what is it that kind of equips people for that, Beth?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Yeah, we um we we were really interested to see the range of backgrounds people came from. We we knew partly uh that people were coming from fundraising because a lot of people who do the masters uh um at the University of Kent that Emma and I teach on the this course come in often as fundraisers and having taken this course are then tempted to move over into advising. And again, that's what gave us an idea that there might be a germ of interest in sharing this knowledge more widely. Um but the people we spoke to came from frontline uh nonprofit and humanitarian work. Um, they came from careers advising, uh, which has some similar uh elements to it. Um they also came from um more sort of, I suppose, well-known professional advising roles. So wealth management, um, you know, working in banks, uh perhaps working as lawyers or accountants. And I think one of our key audiences for this book is those people, because there's already a huge army of people working with those who have the ability to give more and to give better. And if they could only bring up the topic of philanthropy when they speak to them, what a difference that would make. And we know from other research that many advisors who hold those kind of jobs, like lawyers and accountants and so on, aren't always confident to bring up the topic of philanthropy. Um, they don't feel they have an expertise on it. Perhaps they worry about feeling de-skilled if they bring up a topic and their client asks questions that they can't answer. So, much as we'd love to uh encourage anyone to learn more about philanthropy advising and to consider it as the role they might play to uh to be in the philanthropy space, we're particularly keen on reaching the thousands and thousands of people who are already in those kind of jobs, you know, perhaps they're in family offices, perhaps their own banks and so on, uh, because simply raising the topic of philanthropy with their client and then passing them on if they don't feel they have the expertise, perhaps then bringing in someone like Emma or a you know, consultant or an independent philanthropy advisor who can do the kind of work that they don't aren't equipped to do as an accountant or a lawyer. And likewise, I think the courtesy goes in both directions, where the independent advisor, who perhaps is more uh skilled at guiding on you know, developing a philanthropic strategy or doing uh analysis of the nonprofit sector, would then bring in an accountant or a lawyer if there was a technical issue around you know setting up a foundation or tackling, you know, those kind of legalistic side of things. So it's really about bringing the philanthropy advisor into those existing uh conversations that people are having uh with those who are already around them.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

And and as well as that potential relationship between sort of more general advisors, being aware of philanthropy and able to direct um clients towards specialist philanthropy advice that might be independent. There are obviously some wealth management and sort of private banks that that have their own in-house functions these days. Where I mean, obviously, there's some people who fit that description that you spoke to for the book. What's the sense you get from them of what the kind of business case is for those organizations in providing philanthropy? I mean, is it is it kind of seen as part of their social responsibility and a nice thing to do, or is there a kind of hard-headed business side to it where they think it's genuinely something that offers added value to clients and makes them more competitive?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah, I mean, certainly the ones we spoke to talk about it being, you know, a really great thing to bring into a client relationship because it's, you know, most people give. Um, they they might not be giving as much as they could, and they might not be giving as well as they could, but it's it's not a new thing that you're introducing into the conversation. So the client in front of you probably already is giving and might feel quite relieved that they can bring philanthropy into their more general financial uh management conversations. Um so it's not a surprise uh when these topics come up. Um the um what the people working in those settings told us is that quite often a lot of their work is to convince their colleagues um to refer their clients and to explain to them what this involves. So they uh don't have to find um clients or customers because they're already with the bank, but they do have to persuade their colleagues that this is is added value. Uh and I think that's happening. I mean, in in the UK. Since 2005. So we're talking nearly 20 years now. This has been a standard offering in some of the big uh banks. Uh, and so that's definitely a positive development. But again, that's why we need more people who are able to take these roles uh if this offering is going to increase to uh other banks and to other countries.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Uh yeah, absolutely. And one thing I would I wanted to come back to sort of um around the role of advisors, you know, we talked about some of the skills that needed and what makes for a good relationship. What are some of the the challenges? I mean, you mentioned there, Beth, when you're working in the context of a financial institution that that is just a challenge in getting people in other parts of the institution to pass them on. But for the the advisors themselves and the ones you spoke to, what are some of the things they find most frustrating or difficult about their role?

SPEAKER_02 22:44

So a mixture of things. So the knowledge comes into it because just that need to know a lot about a whole range of issues. So if you're a generalist um advisor and somebody you know is interested in mental health, but the climate and um early years or whatever it is, or music, or a whole range of different things that they could be interested in. And so you need to know enough about lots of things, or at least have good networks and good ability to find more detailed information out. So that's a little overwhelming in the same way that their clients are overwhelmed, but I think that's probably quite a good bit of empathy of just you know having the same issue of navigating through the array of choices. I think some of the trickier parts are being in the middle, so it's a kind of intermediary role. So you're balancing between um charities and nonprofits um and working with them and kind of looking to them um to find out what they're doing or making connections, and you're kind of convening that space between the client and and the non-profits, and that can be tricky in terms of managing expectations sometimes and just being caught in the middle. There's an element that um you it's a vicarious job. So you you can't achieve anything without somebody acting on your advice, and that's a frustration that comes up when people, you know, you give advice and it's not acted upon or not heard, and you're not the only person that the donor is is talking to, and you're not the only factor in the mix. So that can be a frustration if you think you can see a really clear path, and the um the donor at the philanthropist for whatever reason doesn't follow what you want. I think patience came up as quite an important skill, um, with just the the pace of some of this um work. You quite often are talking about busy people. Um, and if you're involving kind of the next generation, sometimes they're particularly busy people, and so you may not be able just to have um bring everyone together for the conversations or just have the time with the client as you might like to have. So that can slow it up. Um, and then you have the flip side of sometimes people talk about clients who, you know, want to make an impact today, you know, get on with it, and I want to make that difference now. So you you're talking about different people and different scenarios that that all present challenges um for the advisor who's just trying to work out how best to respond. Um, you know, how how quick is realistic, or how much do you have to sort of spent slow everything down, say, you know, that's not a realistic expectation, let me tell you more, which can be tricky if you've got somebody who's very results driven and you know, and is used to people saying, yes, I'll do it. So there's the human and and the knowledge as well as challenges.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

And and you mentioned there about the you know the role of an advisor being one uh as an intermediary often between sort of donor and and the recipient organizations. Um and another interesting relationship that sort of touched on in the book, and Beth, I'd love to hear your view on this, is the one between philanthropy advisors and fundraisers. And I know you've done lots of work about fundraisers, but it strikes me that from the point of view of fundraiser, you know, most of them would really, really like to get in touch with wealthy people and have those relationships. So do they see philanthropy advisors as useful points of contact that can help them do that? Or do they see them as kind of gatekeepers that get in the way of them having direct relationships with wealthy people?

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yeah, I think it's a fascinating relationship between fundraisers and philanthropy advisors, and it's based mostly on an imaginary of what the other does. I don't think many of them actually meet. There's not many conferences or you know places where these people come together, and I would I would love that to happen more often. And I think because they don't tend to know each other in reality just as an idea, it can lead in two directions. One, it can lead to over hopefulness. You know, if only I could get them to tell their clients all about our organization, then this would be, you know, it would lead to donations. And I think many advisors that we spoke to have that experience of fundraisers trying to get a slice of their time and put their uh put their cause in front of them. Uh and then the other direction it can go in is is of suspicion and perhaps even mutual suspicion, it's fair to say, where you see the other as, as you mentioned, as a gatekeeper or as just an extra barrier or a problem, or or even from the fundraiser's point of view, gosh, they're spending money on an advisor which could have otherwise come to the cause. So is it depleting overall the amounts of money? So I think um something I hope we've succeeded in doing in the book is allaying some of those fears and also moderating some of those expectations. Um, because actually, in reality, the fundraiser and the advisor are doing quite different, related but quite different things. So, whereas the fundraiser is trying to cultivate the supply of uh donors to their organisation, the advisor is more about cultivating the broader uh supply of people uh who are interested in supporting all causes and doing so in an effective and hopefully more generous way. So they're on different paths. Uh, and actually, I think that's quite a positive message because if there are more donors out there doing more thoughtful giving, that's good news uh for the fundraising profession. Um, so I hope that that will help to allay some of those fears. And I think even beyond the fundraiser's view, perhaps the general view of philanthropy uh might be um might be sort of uh soothed by by hearing that these people are there working with donors, pointing out when their ideas are, perhaps you know, there's a mismatch between their ambition and what can be achieved, or there's a lack of understanding. Uh, you know, many of the advisors we spoke to say they have to explain to their clients why nonprofits have overheads and salaries and you know, why they operate in the way they do. So there's there's quite an interesting education piece going on and that is useful more broadly. So if the output of all of this is you know, more and smarter givers, then one would hope that you know the philanthropy profession would be something of a walking response to critiques of philanthropy.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

And yeah, I'd love to come back to that question about the sort of the role that um philanthropy advisors can play in terms of some of those wider critiques of philanthropy and addressing them in a moment. I just wanted to touch on something that you mentioned before, Emma, about um the potential kind of next generation of donors. I mean, anybody who spends any time in the world of philanthropy will hear a lot of talk about wealth transfer and next gen and whether there's you know a new new breed of donors emerging who are very different from the ones who've gone before. When it comes to advice, um, what was the the sense of the people that you spoke to about whether, you know, as you say, that next generation of donors are more likely to seek advice. And when they do seek advice, are they looking for different things from advisors than maybe the you know the generation that preceded them?

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Lovely questions, Roddy. I wish we knew more, definite scope for more research as to you know how people are uh seeking and responding to advice. But yeah, the research we do have suggests that yes, they're more open to advice and they're more focused on purpose and impact, so more led with impact, and that shapes giving in different ways, so more likely to be um engaged, more likely to respond to movements rather than institutions. So we have some sort of general information about how they might be operating differently. I think that there um there's more space, I think, for um peer support in terms of the next generation. I think it's important for all donors, but I think you see that more with um younger um donors wanting to be more connected and doing that digitally. So you'll see um we talk to um Lauren Gross, who who um runs the Mesa, for example, as a sort of donor platform. So I think we've got these digital platforms that are connecting, um connecting donors, and I think younger ones definitely respond to that. There's some shifts in their interest, so more interest in in climate and more awareness of wealth inequality and and justice issues, and I think that therefore plays out in hopefully in who they're approaching for advice, because some advisers will position themselves very much at looking at um wealth inequality and justice and and supporting um those that are inheriting um supporting them with kind of getting their head around what that means and and what their role is in the world with those issues. So there is a different um feel to some of the offer that they're um reaching out for and some of the the advice that they're they're seeking and getting.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

It's really interesting you mentioned peer learning there as well, because that's something I've heard from a few donors as well, is is actually one form of advice is the advice you know that you don't necessarily get from people who are experts in a sense, but from ones who have experience of of doing uh philanthropy. And it's a it's a different kind of advice, and actually the sort of the power dynamics are quite different. From the advisors that you talk to, are there many of them that kind of make active efforts to build those sorts of networks as part of what they do? So they've got a kind of convening role as well.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Yeah, I think definitely advisors' role in connecting and convening is really strong. So whether that's connecting to nonprofits, whether that's connecting to ideas or approaches, but also yes, connecting within their peers. And we see that their um donor education and training and retreats and um that inner work of kind of working on yourself and thinking about your own um role, we definitely see more development in that area over the last few years. So um in America we call sort of donor organizing, but you know, here you can see that starting to happen in in terms of peer learning and peer support, which I think is you know is really positive. If you think of some of the the scrutiny that um donors and planters are under, then actually having that space is is important. And some some of the issues that they have to deal with, you know, so family foundations trying to work out, you know, how do we how do we bring diversity into our decision making when we when you're a family? That's a hard challenge, that's a different challenge than you would have as an institutional funder. And some of the private conversations around, you know, do I leave money for my children? Do I not leave money for my children? How much should I leave them? And and those conversations. I would want to talk to peers about things like that, and you can see why philanthropists do. I think it's very important, and I think and um interviewees in the book again talked about you don't want to just create a kind of safe echo chamber so that has their role, um, has an important role in in connecting donors with each other, but there's also a need for other um information and other voices to be heard to influence their decisions as well. So that link to nonprofits to the sector to experts and to other advisors, I think is also really important. We talk very much about a philanthropy ecosystem, and I think that's what what we're talking about. Advisors are one part of that and can sometimes help explain what the other bits are. Sometimes we're quite a crucial one to explain that this exist ecosystem exists, you know, and what else do they want um to be kind of connected with?

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yeah, no, they're in a vital role. Um and and Beth, I just wanted to pick up on what you mentioned earlier about the role of advisors in in potentially kind of helping to address some of the wider critiques of philanthropy, which I know is something you've you've written about. Um, how do you see that role? Is it in kind of just bringing those critiques to the attention of philanthropists so that they're aware of them? Or, you know, do some of these advisors see themselves as having a more active role in kind of trying to shape giving in response to these kinds of critiques?

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Yeah, and I think philanthropy advising has got wrapped up in the critiques because I suppose just the nature of it being often through you know, wealth management or family offices, it can feel like it could be um something that helps to you know placate wealthy clients or even um sort of reinforce you know the the those existing status and family sort of wealth situations. So I think there's you know there's definitely the possibility that advising can um either be neutral to exacerbating. Um so for example, if an advisor was very much serving the donor's interests, you know, what do you want to do? How can I make you happy? Um, rather than the sort of broader social interest. Um so you know, of course, that potential is there. Uh I think though, what what we what what the research shows um from both the client side, the donor side, and from the advisor side is that's not why they're getting into advising. So, for example, one of the main motivators of people coming to a philanthropy advisor is concerns about uh family wealth and how it might affect children and the problems of inheritance. And that you know, that's you know, takes us very neatly into the issue of inequality and wealth and the role that philanthropy can play uh in terms of diverting or dispersing that wealth away from you know private bank accounts into the public good. So I think there are, whilst there are ways that you know the uh of exacerbating the problems, there are many more ways in which advising can can help to mitigate and ameliorate them. So um in addition to um the to the money going to uh beyond the family, uh things like how the money is distributed. So it's it's well known, you know, many of the critics of philanthropy and many other people have been trying to point out that the processes of distributing philanthropy can be problematic uh in terms of um forcing nonprofits to do really very time-consuming um applications, um, where power differentials are really quite unpleasant. Um, so advisors can work with their clients to explain that and to say, let's let's rebuild the application process or let's do it in a different way. I mean, obviously, one of the most famous examples of advising that's currently in the uh out there is is Bridge Span's work with Mackenzie Scott. Now, we have no way of knowing behind the scenes who made what decisions, but her way of distributing her money uh may have been uh influenced by by the advice given by working with a you know a big philanthropy advising consultancy. So the kind of things that that advisors can do is to um talk about shifting the power within how their clients work with communities, um, conducting maybe more respectful site visits uh and interactions with with non-profit um uh frontline people. Um, some of the people we spoke to were very interested in in philanthropy as reparation uh and uh in in terms of you know how one uh you know does that in practice, how one uh operates with a more trust-based um approach. So all the kinds of things that the critics are saying, and and those who want to improve philanthropy are saying, philanthropy advisors are another set of people who can help uh to make that happen. So I think that uh, and they can also just encourage more bolder giving, you know, instead of putting in an endowment and trickling out the money uh over a long term, you know, if you're if if the family or the client wants to do this, let's do more now. So advisors can be allies of the critics of philanthropy. Uh, and I hope that that that that's why I hope this book will help contribute to that conversation about what is good philanthropy and and how can we better achieve it.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Yeah, absolutely great. Um I I won't keep you guys uh any longer, but just remains to say thanks ever so much for finding time to come on the podcast. I'll put links in the show notes to places where people can can find the book. Um uh and uh yeah, certainly hope to get you back on at some point in the future and we can kind of pick up on on some of this and and see where things have moved forward on the whole world of philanthropy advice.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

Thanks, Roger. Thank you very much, Roger.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Okay, great. Well, my thanks again to Emma and Beth for coming on the podcast. Um, I'll put links in the show notes to places where you can get hold of their book and also read uh some other things that they've written and some things that I've written that might be relevant. Uh if you're interested more broadly in issues around philanthropy and civil society, uh, as you should know by now, do check out the website at whyphilanthropymatters.com. Uh follow me on Twitter at Rodery underscore h underscore Davis or at philiteracy. Uh, you can also find me on LinkedIn and Mastodon and various other places. Um if you've got ideas for people we could talk to on the podcast or topics we could cover, why not drop me a line? You can find the email on the website. Other than that, just like, subscribe, tell all your friends about it, leave a nice review on iTunes or wherever else you get your podcasts, and I'll see you next time. Bye.