SPEAKER_00 0:12

You're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast with Roger Davis. Hello, you're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast. This is the podcast where we try to put philanthropy in context. I'm your host, as ever, Rod Davis, and this week we are in conversation and we're talking to David King all about faith and giving. Now, David is an academic, um, so he's the Karen Lake Buttry Director of the Lake Institute on Faith and Giving, uh, and also an associate professor of philanthropic studies at the Lilly Family School of Philanthropy at IUPUI uh in the US, which is uh a mouthful, but I managed to get through it. Um and I sat down uh with David um a couple of weeks ago uh for a fascinating conversation which I've uh been wanting to do for a while, all about uh his work on the links between faith and giving and the way in which faith, religion, and sort of broader ideas of spirituality inform and shape philanthropy. Um so we had a good wide-ranging conversation. We talked about what it is that David does and some of his colleagues at the Lake Institute. Um we talked about why it is that faith continues, even in the modern world, sort of play an important part in both motivating and shaping approaches to giving. Um we tried to sort of tease out what it is about faith as a factor in philanthropy that it's so important, you know, whether it is the fact that particular religions have specific religious requirements or teachings about giving, so sort of tithing or sadaka in the Jewish faith or zakat in Islam and others, whether it's broader religious teachings on uh ethics and responsibility and and kind of how one comports oneself in society, or whether it's sort of more pragmatic things like the fact it gives people a sense of shared religious identity and therefore builds a sense of community, and whether actually just the fact of going to a building or a place of worship on a regular basis is something that drives giving and fundraising behaviour. Um and so uh we talked about whether religious giving uh is by its sort of nature more focused on religious recipient organizations and whether those tend to be sort of within the same faith group, or whether actually a lot of the giving that uh on the face of it looks religious actually makes its way out into the wider world through kind of social welfare programmes as well. Um we talked about uh the extent to which different religions' teachings on sort of the nature of poverty and and justice um has a bearing on on driving, shaping people's people's giving and how that kind of fits in at the moment on current debates about the relationship between philanthropy and and justice. Uh we talked about places of worship and the role that they play in maintaining cultures of giving and whether that is you know partly down to their religious nature or whether uh actually increasingly it's more just that they act as sort of broader community anchors within places, particularly as secular um community spaces are kind of declining. Um we talked more broadly about whether faith and religiosity is on the decline in the US and the UK and other places, and what that would mean for philanthropy over the longer term, or whether actually uh if you uh disaggregate religion and formalize religious observance um and membership of religious congregations congregations from sort of broader ideas of faith and spirituality, whether actually the the levels are remaining the same, but people are sort of shifting towards more of an individual model of faith and what that would mean for giving. Um we talked a bit about giving and and religion specifically in the US and kind of the role that it plays there. Um and we also talked quite a bit about the role that um faith has played in shaping international development in particular and the fact that a lot of organizations in that sector have roots that are one way or another kind of based in faith communities, and actually, even today, uh faith-based organizations continue to play a big part in international development. Um and then we talked a bit about kind of studying the role of faith within philanthropy and some of the challenges that throws up, and whether actually there needs to be more work done to join the dots between people who study faith communities and the sort of issues around faith-based organizations, and those who are trying to study the non-profit sector and philanthropy. Um so without further ado, let's get into the conversation and then I will be back at the end for the usual little bit of housekeeping and tidying up. So enjoy. Okay, great. Well, I'm here with David King. Hi, David. Hi, Rodri. Great to have you on the podcast. Uh, and for those listening, David is the Karen Lake Buttry Director of the Lake Institute on Faith and Giving, and also an associate professor in philanthropic studies at the Lilly Family School of Philanthropy at IUPUI in the US. Um, lots I want to talk about around the kind of central theme of the relationship between faith and philanthropy and giving um today. But maybe the best starting point is just for you to tell us a bit in your own words about what the Lake Institute is and what it does and what your role is there.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah, sure, I'd love to, and I'm really grateful for the conversation. Uh Lake Institute has been uh around for about two decades with this mission of um trying to understand the sort of dynamic relationship between um the faith and giving. And it's a set of topics that most often are uh most often people want uh to kind of run away from or not to engage. But we're excited about um the work that we that we do, focused particularly maybe on maybe three areas. So we do a lot of research uh looking at the ways that religion intersects um with giving charitable um organizations or motivations for giving. And we do a lot of uh teaching and training, working with uh nonprofit professionals, donors, fundraisers, and thinking about the unique aspects of how faith might inspire or inform those giving relationships. And then moving towards public conversation, which is a growing edge for us, really to host uh convenings of scholars, of practitioners, of civic leaders, thinking about the ways in which uh sets of values, religion, spirituality, uh, oftentimes are key parts of conversations about sort of meaning-making or um building civil society. And how can we sort of build those bridges in conversations that sometimes are difficult to have when you bring questions of money and religion together?

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and and lots I want to pick up on there. And I guess it was interesting that you said, you know, these are topics that people sometimes want to shy away from. Um, because I I've certainly found, you know, in my my own work over the last couple of uh decades, as somebody who's not particularly a person of faith myself, I've come slowly to appreciate quite how deeply ingrained faith is as a as a sort of motivating force in shaping people's approaches to giving and and how many donors I've met over the years who, one way or another, you know, ground their giving in faith of some sort. Do you do you think that we don't always kind of uh appreciate the role that that faith plays in motivating giving? And what why do you think it is that people feel uncomfortable about acknowledging that sometimes?

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Yeah, I I I do. I I think it, I mean, I think the data is pretty clear that you know faith becomes one of uh, if not the driving you know, motivations for uh predicting uh charitable giving uh and volunteering, for instance, that religious affiliation or religious engagement is key and has been a hallmark, I think, from for most studies around philanthropy. Um it motivates individuals, um, it oftentimes motivates uh organizations um to do the work that they do. Uh historically, I think it's it's pretty clear, you know, particularly the nonprofit charitable sector in in general is reliant on many of the faith traditions that have set up many kind of the organizations that we that we lean into today. Um but I think you know reasons people sometimes uh have difficulty um sort of engaging these things is is maybe just a lack of understanding, uh sometimes a lack of interest. But oftentimes I think it really is the siloing and professionalization of our various sectors that sort of oftentimes sort of um you know maybe think about philanthropy or the nonprofit sector um in a distinct way from religious cultures or religious identity. Uh and so I'm on a on a mission to really bring those conversations together and help people to understand the need to better understand their donors or their organizations in which they work, if just uh if they can sort of ask discerning questions about some of those motivations for uh for giving and maybe to help better understand you know the the dynamic nature of of how these things all work together.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah, absolutely. And I think I mean it's a fascinating topic, I think, to to dig into. And one of the the questions that I always have in my own mind, and I'd be fascinated to to get your thoughts, I'm sure you know you know a lot more than I do about it, is is when, as you said, you know, faith is is clearly in almost all of the data that's out there, a um a factor in shaping and motivating giving and approaches to philanthropy. But but what form does that that take in terms of of how that factor is being manifested? Is it that people are responding to sort of direct teachings about giving as part of their religion? Is it about sort of the broader teachings that that religion might have on kind of responsibility to society and the nature of wealth and that kind of thing? Or is it more practical things like the fact that you might regularly go to a place of worship and that just has benefits in terms of putting you in uh in the position to be asked to give or kind of told to give? You know, which uh uh which of these factors do you think are kind of the most important, or is it impossible to say, you know, that one's more important than the other?

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, that you know, I do think it's really, really difficult to sort of disaggregate these different types of factors. And I think it's the layering on or the mixing of those different types of uh motivations that religion brings to those questions that that that it's its power. So I mean, clearly uh almost all religious traditions share some sense of a command or teaching around giving or generosity, uh caring for the neighbor, um uh the poor, the widow, the orphan. These kinds of uh you know key teachings are really across the board. It's it's one, I would say, one of the things that are you know sort of religious traditions share uh in common and oftentimes can be a great place to build relationships across religious traditions. So, yes, it's clearly part of the teachings, um, it's part of the larger culture. I would say rituals, rituals and practice. You know, giving is oftentimes ritualized in many of these contexts. Um, but at the same time, really oftentimes it really is that religious engagement too, I think that is maybe the most um essential, which is the sense of uh maybe it's positive peer pressure. You know, people are around others who are giving. They're faced with uh maybe more ask or invitations to give, um, they have more opportunities. I think this is this is key. So, in sort of a social capital argument, I think pulling people together uh and showing people needs and ways to to meet those needs is a key part of it as well. So, yes, teachings and individual practice, but I think the social component is key. And as our religious affiliation and sort of engagement patterns are changing uh in the US and more globally, it's an interesting question for us to think about what that means for how religion might continue to inform or inspire giving.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Absolutely. And and yeah, I wanted to talk about that that way in which religion and and faith and the relationship between the two might be evolving in a moment. I guess the the follow-up question to what you were saying there is if if we're kind of clear that religion is a factor in driving giving and philanthropic behavior for these various different reasons, what kind of philanthropic engagement does it does it generally lead to? Is it is it primarily giving that is focused on religious institutions themselves or at least kind of mediated by religious institutions? Or does it also lead to increases in a focus on on sort of secular causes as well?

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah, I think the answer again is both. I mean, I think we we have we have data that shows that it in some ways these religious traditions is is the is the tide that lifts all boats. And so, yes, the majority does go to um organizations or you know, faith communities, oftentimes uh of shared traditions. So maybe um Christians giving to their local congregations, uh Muslims giving to local Muslim or international Muslim organizations, let's say. Uh that's where the majority of funds go with sort of in-group religious giving. But we also know that that people uh sort of who ascribe to religious identity and engagement, on average give more to both religious causes and what we might think of as secular causes. So those religious motivations also oftentimes are leading to giving to faith-based organizations outside their local faith community, or what we might think of as more broadly secular organizations, and you know, whether that's social services or international relief and development organizations, for instance. Um, so there is a both and component to it, I think, in what we know from the data.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah, absolutely. Um and coming back to that question that that we sort of parked for a moment there about um the potential sort of need to differentiate slightly between faith as a concept and and religion. Um I know this is something you kind of flagged up before before we uh started talking on the podcast that I thought was really interesting, which is actually sometimes we treat the two as if they're synonyms, but that hides a potential distinction between organized, formalized religion in the way that we understand it done through through sort of the recognizable institutions, and a potentially broader sphere of faith and spirituality that might be a much more individual pursuit. Could you maybe say a bit about how that factors into your work and and sort of how we need to understand that when it comes to philanthropy?

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Sure. I mean, in all of these uh, you know, scholars who are studying um religion or spirituality more broadly are are debating what you know how we define these terms, what they what they look like or what they mean. Um but particularly uh in the States, for instance, and I would think this is across the board, as spirituality has grown, uh oftentimes as religious affiliation or more formal religious ties have declined, the questions are, you know, what does that look like for civil society? Um, or if religious institutions might be in decline, such as a church or a mosque attendance. What does that mean about people's spiritual practices? Um so oftentimes what we're we're finding out is just because someone might be uh less religious doesn't mean that they've uh sort of moved away from some form of uh sort of spiritual um practice or spiritual identity. And sometimes religion and spirituality go together. One could sort of define themselves as both religious and spiritual. So there are layers to it as far as thinking about maybe religious cultures or religious institutions versus individuals, let's say. But I think it would help us uh to again move across fields, for instance. Those of us who are studying nonprofits or philanthropy more broadly need to engage these this broader set of questions about just because someone says they you know are no longer Catholic or Lutheran, doesn't mean that they might still be think forming sort of meaning-making sets of values and practices that continue to inform the way they might give, uh, volunteer, or engage you know, around questions of advocacy. In some recent work that we've done, we we're finding that's the case. So people with a religious identity, even if that might be atheist or agnostic, versus someone who might just be um nothing in particular. Uh so whatever that identity might be, and some sort of engagement with it. It could be uh walking, you know, sort of specifically taking walks in nature, um, yoga, uh, reading a variety of different scriptural or um spiritual text. These practices also become um sort of uh priming for things like giving and volunteering or engagement. Uh, and so we need to be able to think about the broader ways that we can look at um how those motivations might be shaping our work around fundraising, charitable giving, or are the broader under umbrella around advocacy or um activism too.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

That's that's really interesting. So so, in some sense, perhaps the the the work of more secular organizations within the nonprofit sphere might be for people who have moved away from some formal organized religion but still retain some element of spirituality or kind of desire for meaning-making in their lives, is providing them with that ability to form identities, uh communities of sort of shared identity or purpose that they otherwise might have had in a religious context. Is is that to some extent true, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 17:38

I definitely think so. I mean, I think what we what we know is those religious communities, uh, just to our earlier point, was it's it's partly the teachings and and and text and practices of religion that has shaped giving, but but also that social connection, uh, which I think is is has been key. And so uh continuing to find new forms of communities, whether they be churches or synagogues or more other places where meaning-making happens in community, would be an important, I think, role for civil society and for nonprofits, I think, um, to continue to foster um the way that individuals might want to engage or give back. Uh, I also think it's you know it would be good for fundraisers and and and nonprofit leaders to to just be curious and ask questions and make sense of that that those values, those meaning-making parts of all of us that that are going to align with the passions and values of the organizations that we support.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Yeah, absolutely. And I and I guess that, I mean, almost putting it the the other way, um, you know, one of the things that makes it possible to form some of those communities of identity. I mean, they they can be formed obviously in a kind of online environment these days, but still in many cases they are reliant on literal sort of bricks and mortar physical buildings. And in a local context, certainly in the UK, and I don't know if the same is true in the US, there is uh a huge decline in in sort of general purpose secular community buildings, and what tends to be left in those communities are religious buildings of of some form or another. So they play an increasingly important role as community buildings and community anchors. Actually, even if people are finding their that sort of meaning-making through the work of more secular nonprofit institutions, do you think in a practical sense though those those nonprofit organizations need to look to work with faith organizations simply because they are the ones that have places where you can bring people together?

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Sho yeah, definitely. You know, I and I think this is a this is a question in the states that we're um really thinking through right now as well, is uh kind of coming out of the pandemic and and sort of where many uh faith communities were online for you know the better part of two plus years. Um, what do we do with many of these um infrastructure buildings that may not be needed in the same way? Uh and we do have some great studies from um you know remarkable scholars like Ram Kanan and others who who talk about the halo effect of these of these congregations. And so it's not only the resources that they uh that they bring in through tithes and offerings, let's say, but it's the larger communal effect that they have. It's the green space that they that they have within cities, it's the it's the space that they um they they loan out or they rent out at under you know undermarket rates to sort of nonprofits and other community groups. It's also just that social capital, I think, that we can't ignore. Um many um of these religious communities are at uh have those, uh, I would say those relationships at the grassroots. And so if if a community, a larger nonprofit, you know, has a really or a government organization is looking to contract out um social services or find ways to help a community, uh, you would be doing a disservice if you didn't look to who are those leaders within those communities. And oftentimes it's the it's the priest, it's the imam, it's the local pastor. Uh, and sort of building off of those where that local leadership already is is important. But I think that it would I think across these lines, working with religious organizations who many are um often quite eager to uh to work within their communities more broadly. So finding ways to partner, using those spaces, finding ways uh to have shared um sort of uh meet shared needs, I think would be would be an important part. Breaking down those silos that are sort of somewhat artificial uh would be, I think it's a really open opportunity that we have now. Uh, and I've seen that from foundations and nonprofits who who realize the sort of uh the capital that religious organizations have that they've oftentimes ignored um in the past and are beginning to think that through a bit more now.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Yeah, that's that's really interesting. I almost a sense that there's a Just a kind of pragmatic, almost instrumentalist argument for engaging with religious organizations, not particularly because you are religiously motivated as an individual or a funding organization, or that's part of your cause area, but because the cause area you are working on, the most effective way to distribute resources is to work in partnership with those organizations. Do you do you think, I mean, is is that a a growing part of the narrative in in the US when it comes to the work of foundations or even sort of, you know, government policy? Or do you think there has been hesitancy to engage either just through lack of knowledge or or because there's a sort of, you know, as you say, there's there are silos between those sectors?

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Yeah, I I think there is a growing uh growing move in that direction. Uh, and I think instrumental and sort of that instrumental narrative is the right one to think about. So, you know, I've seen uh I I would say government, particularly sort of state and local governments in the US have for the most part been okay with working with these communities for for a long for many years, knowing that oftentimes um they're they're the best um resource organizations to get the work done. You know, there continues to be uh conflict um around sort of separation of church and state and what kind of religious organizations might accept those funds or be the best um distributors of those funds. But I would say more broadly, particularly in the last few years, as the you know, philanthropic narratives foundation questions are asking about you know participatory grant making, trust-based philanthropy, um, sort of turning to address things like the racial reckoning in our country and beyond, they realize that many of the actors that they don't have at the table are um diverse religious communities, oftentimes maybe black and brown religious communities. And so there is a bit of what I would say is a positive reach foundations who don't know those religious communities reaching out to get to know them because of shared values around things like whether it meant environmental causes or um rebuilding um urban centers or other types of maybe sort of shared uh missions. My caution um that I oftentimes will sort of speak back to those foundations is to move beyond instrumentalization. How can you get to know those communities and learn from them and have them speak back to the philanthropic community um beyond simply an instrumental approach? And that's a growing edge, I think, for philanthropy to see the strengths that those religious communities at the grassroots can bring to the table at the same time as using and learning from them uh because they're already there.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah, absolutely. And it almost it seems to reflect a sort of a a wider divide when thinking about the the relationship, particularly between sort of r religion and and philanthropy, I mean, in the US context and and elsewhere, which is religion as a motivating factor on the donor side for certain, and then organizations that are religious in nature and sort of giving to those for that reason, but then the potentially much sort of broader field of organizations that have religious roots or some some religious element to them, but doing much wider elements of welfare work and all kinds of other non-profit activities. When thinking about the sector as a whole, does that get captured adequately? Or do you think the the sort of when we talk about religion in the context of philanthropy, we we too neatly compartmentalize it as you know, religious institutions and giving to them? And there's all this other activity that that is going on that might be getting missed.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Oh, for sure. I mean, this is a bit of a soapbox for me where I where I've spent a good amount of some of my work in the past decade is really moving uh beyond simply what oftentimes gets uh maybe labeled as either uh a yes or no. You know, is this organization religious or not? Yes or no? Um others, you know, others will think about it more on a spectrum or more or less religious. Um and then I would say some are thinking about different how what types or what in what ways is an organization perhaps religious? Is it is a hiring policy, for instance? Is it the way they do their programming? Is it the way they talk about their mission or um uh sort of build a board, a set of trustees together? Uh, is it their funding strategies? Uh I think it's much more interesting to look at how sort of the dynamic uh identities of organizations, just like we look at individuals and communities. So again, looking across time, how organizations have changed, how they uh message to their you know, their donor community, their sort of a public profile, as well as the ways they engage with uh government partners, other secular uh networks. So I, you know, we've done some recent research in in the States where we've calculated basically that you know over half, 55% of organizations in international affairs category, these kind of relief and development organizations, are religious in some form, whether in the activity that they do, or more often in their identity. You know, their the work that they do looks just like maybe any other large secular NGO. Um, but the ways they talk about what maybe inspires that work is pretty broad across religious traditions or in the ways that they talk about it. But I think the work that's happening is much more complex. Uh, and the NGO sector knows this. Um, if you're at you know the the World Bank, yeah, you know, if you're at Geneva or or London or in these conversations, um, they know what sort of uh effective development work looks like and work across these um fields. Um in some ways those stark lines between religious yes or no um is is not overly helpful in thinking about the complex way that that we that these work that work actually happens.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Yeah, and I wanted to ask particularly about that, that sort of international context in the context of international development and humanitarian assistance. I know it's something you've written about in the past and and particularly the sort of historical background to it. Um and you sort of said a bit there about the fact that you know a lot of these organizations still have some element of religious identity, but but in a way they're working in a sort of secular, um, in a secular way. But why why is it from do you think that that actually there is such a prevalence of organizations that have come from some form of religious background working in international development? Is it you know is there something about that that religious background that gives you more of an internationalist point of view, or is it kind of tied in with the history of missionary work or what is it?

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Uh uh again, I think it's it's it's several of those themes that you mentioned, but I do think probably probably at the core, particularly in the West, in the US, and the UK in particular, I think it's that it is that sort of um missionary colonial history that oftentimes led to those initial organizations. And many of those largest missionary societies, whether it's the Church of England or through a variety of different sort of American uh outposts, uh, did have that missionary uh identity. But even early on, it was a mix of both um an attempt towards evangelization, but also a variety of different sort of, we might think of it as civilization, but but definitely versions of a humanitarian impulse towards things like uh medical care, education, uh, etc. And I think over time those organizations oftentimes shifted uh in a variety of different traditions and ways, you know, some maintaining that sort of evangelization and um social action impulse, and some moving you know much more clearly away from that, uh, which makes for an interesting, uh diverse field of these NGOs. But historically, I think it is that sort of global outreach. Um today I think it's also important to think about uh shared uh religious identity. So this is definitely true for you know uh Christians in the West that oftentimes see uh the sort of the growth in the church being the global south. So, how do they sort of look to shared religious communities in helping and aiding one another? This is definitely also true in you know, maybe the uh the Muslim community where much of giving goes to the global umma or sort of the larger kind of Muslim community together, whether that's remittance, payments back home, or just the larger work of a group like Islamic relief that really kind of works in this way. And of course, Judaism, you know, thinking about the ways that they support the global Jewish community, um, supports the you know the complicated story of Israel, you know, with American Jews and others thinking about you know how to aid and support Israel. But um so there are shared identity questions as well as sort of um a growing awareness of of a larger world that that I think defines some of these questions.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's a really good point there about um you know the fact that actually a lot of religiously motivated giving or giving to in a religious sense in an international context is probably not happening through these large INGOs, even though they they are the ones that we often sort of see and hear the work about. But there's actually these vast flows of remittances and religiously motivated giving to individuals and communities going on. Do you do you think, you know, do we do you think we need to be doing more to try and kind of capture some of that more informal and semi-formal giving and to understand what's motivating it and where it's going and how it's contributing to sort of some of these these wider goals that we have as a society?

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Oh, definitely. And I think I mean I think this is across the board, religious giving or not, but I do think, you know, if we're if we look towards, you know, in the States, we're we're we're we're asking questions about sort of um uh sort of declines in giving by household, for instance, and sort of giving continue to skew towards um, you know, the the the large sort of uh as wealth inequality grows, the larger, you know, the larger givers having more, um, giving more, having more power, these kinds of questions. Uh these questions are in the UK as well. Uh oftentimes it might not simply be declines in giving, it may just be um transitions or shifts from giving in those formal ways to a registered 501c3 or a registered charitable organization to a variety of informal uh giving practices that oftentimes, again, historically, uh religious communities as well as many others have engaged in traditions like mutual aid and support for decades, if not I mean for centuries. So looking at that, finding ways to attend to those different practices of giving would really maybe make a would really open up questions of how we think about philanthropy and giving more broadly. Um but I also think not only dollars and hours, but just the the ideas and traditions that oftentimes really shape something like philanthropy or global giving would be well um would be well informed if we had a bigger picture of all the grassroots organizations and short-term mission groups, et cetera, that often that they're defining the picture of how people think about engaging with the world more than what's happening at um around the table uh for the big international NGOs.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Yeah, absolutely. It's a constant challenge, but it strikes me that we in the the the West or the global north or whatever the appropriate terminology might be, are not always that good at learning from other cultures. I think certainly in the UK and the US, there's a sense in which we export ideas of philanthropy and models for doing it, but but haven't necessarily allowed that learning to come back in the other direction. And it it feels as though that's shifting. I think there's much more openness to um, particularly as you said, in the wake of a kind of growing awareness in these contexts of things like mutual aid traditions, recognizing there are other places in the world where these traditions have much you know longer history and continuity and they actually understand them very well and have a lot to teach us. And I think that that feels hugely positive to me. I just I wanted to ask, um, actually, in terms of that idea about kind of learning from others, in with the work that you do at at the Lake Institute, we've we've talked about sort of faith in a in a general sense as a driver and how that manifests itself in in organizations, but obviously, you know, faith is is divided between different religions or kind of you know uh expresses itself in those different ways. How much of the work that you do sort of focuses on different religions and and them as factors in giving? And and also how much work do you do to kind of promote interfaith learning about faith as a driver of philanthropy?

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Yeah, that's that's a good question. It continues to be a growing edge for us. So we work at we work across faith traditions at the Lake Institute and always have. Uh, I would say the majority of our work continues to be within the sort of Christian traditions, partly because of a uh you know, quite frankly, market share and networks within the states as far as just the largest percentage of religious um individuals. Uh, but that continues to grow across the board. So, you know, think we've continued to work with uh the Jewish Funders Network and other sort of settings where we can think about and learn from uh the differences across religious traditions. Uh many of your listeners will know uh uh my colleague Shark Siddiqui, uh, who runs the Muslim Philanthropy Initiative that we have at the School of Philanthropy, and really has been a partner in growing that research around uh Muslim American giving, but even more broadly now in the global space as well. So we we continue to work most uh prominently around the Abrahamic faiths, and we'll love to continue to grow even beyond that as well. But we really have, um particularly on that sort of that public conversation piece of our work, um, have think that giving uh, for instance, is a place where we can bring together these interfaith conversations quite well as we think about the nature of the public good or the common good, our lives together. So a growing area of our work continues to be thinking with foundations and philanthropy as well as religious organizations and secular organizations themselves, and how they can, how we can equip those organizations and better conversations across uh interfaith difference. And I think that'll be a continue to be a growing edge for our work. It's something that we are excited about and I think well positioned to bring um these questions to um the larger field because they're they'll continue to be more and more valuable as we're trying to learn slowly but surely how to break down this uh isolation, polarization, et cetera, that we're continuing to find in our culture. Um this religious difference will be a key place to be able to work across these lines to to make uh to heal some of these um longstanding issues and divides and to work for you know the larger change I think many of us are are looking for.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Yeah, absolutely. And and it also strikes me there, you know, I've become interested, much you know, more more interested than I than I was for a long time in in the particular teachings of different religions uh as a result of engaging with arguments that are going on in the sort of wider philanthropic world. For instance, about you know the relationship between philanthropy and charity um on the one hand and potentially sort of justice on the other, and whether they they can work together or where they sit in tension. And and actually, so much insight is to be found by looking at the teachings of Judaism or Islam or Christianity that's grappled with these questions for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Uh, and yet we often approach these these sort of issues as if we have to solve the problems for ourselves now. Um, and it you know, it strikes me on that, and I'm sure on many other issues, there's there's a huge amount to be learned by kind of you know talking between different religious traditions. Um I wanted to to ask as well, you know, I'm aware that I'm in danger of taking up too much of your your time, but um in terms of the sort of specific academic study of the role of faith and religion in philanthropy, it's something you you kind of touched on uh in in a few of your answers already. But but is it one of those areas in which we need to find ways of linking together the literature, the growing literature that's out there on philanthropy as an area of academic study, and other areas that have their own bodies of literature, but that people coming to it as a study of philanthropy might not be aware of? Uh and it and in the context of faith, you know, where else do we need to be looking and how do we make those links?

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yeah, I mean I think that is a great question. And just to circle back, I do think that sort of these general divides that we've oftentimes had between sort of uh you know, philanthropy and charity, for instance, really starts the study of philanthropy at the turn of the 20th century, sort of the professionalization and the sort of a move towards scientific philanthropy, that studying religion more broadly, you know, whether it's religious traditions or teachings, but just how it has continued to be practiced, will complicate sort of those easy divides between philanthropy and charity. You know, Catholics would be a you know really uh easy place to go to think about sort of Catholic social teaching, for instance, and a very um strong continuation of uh sort of a model around charity coming from the tradition that that complicates a maybe a Protestant secularized notion of philanthropy that oftentimes is has sort of defined our field. Um but that really gets to this other point, which is you know, for me, um as a as a sort of trained as a religious historian, I'm definitely an advocate for bringing these conversations together across fields. So I think it would be good for philanthropy uh more broadly to to dig into or learn from um large, you know, sort of the historical traditions looking at um sort of particularly cultural history and other types of social history that can point to the way that these traditions have shaped and continue to shape uh philanthropy and the practice uh of nonprofit organizations and civil society. I think the reverse is true as well. You know, I've been an advocate uh as I've continued to work across with historians or political scientists or sociologists to think how philanthropy can show up in their research uh in ways that they oftentimes have been sort of uh put off from or thinking that philanthropy is simply studying uh Rockefeller or uh Carnegie or others. How can we open up the study of philanthropy in those fields just the same way we would bring some of those conversations into our models of philanthropy as well? I think that would really uh make for a richer discussion uh across these fields and bring philanthropy into uh a broader set of conversations, as I think that you know, that that philanthropy is already engaged in about sort of notions of the public good, how to work across sectors, etc. Bring that back into the academic conversations, but I think this is just generally where the public conversation needs to go as well. It's already there. Why not just own up into the ways that we can engage in those conversations across the sectors and fields too?

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Yeah, and I I mean I'd heartily endorse that. I mean, certainly it's it's always great to hear people uh you know advocating for a historical perspective on philanthropy, because I, you know, I'm sort of a very, very keen advocate for that myself in terms of how much value I think it can bring, but also making those links across across different academic disciplines and between academia and practice, because it does it feels as though there is so much more mileage to be done with the knowledge that's already out there just by joining those dots between different areas that don't necessarily see themselves as working on the same issues, but actually when a little bit of translation is done or ideas are presented in a slightly different way, it suddenly becomes apparent that they are talking about the same things. Um and it's amazing when when that happens, I find. So um, yeah, absolutely. Um before I let you go, David, it's been absolutely great chatting to you, but I just um wanted to find out you know whether you've got anything particular coming up that you want to let people know about or any sort of final thoughts. I know you've been over here in the UK actually for a while this year, um doing some work over here. Um whether you know you've got particular things coming up or things you're working on that that you want to flag up.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Yeah, no, I I really just want to say thanks for the opportunity to have these kinds of conversations and how much I've you know I've learned from your work and thinking about these sort of layered traditions and and sort of the need to pull these things together. And that continues to sort of define a lot of my work. I'm excited to have been here on a Fulbright University of Edinburgh to think and to work across the UK and think about the different contexts in the US, the UK, and in Europe, for instance, around how we frame these philanthropic um concepts and how we can bring those into conversation with one another. Uh, I continue to be excited to to to have in the community that you know that might be responding to some of these kinds of conversations to follow our work at uh at Lake Institute. Maybe the best way is to subscribe to our newsletter insights. You can do that at sort of at our Lake Institute website or follow us on Twitter at Lake Institute, might be the best place where we oftentimes can um not only our own content and pointing to the data and research, but really curating a lot of the conversations that we see across these fields. Uh, and so I I think you know I'll be working on some of these cross-disciplinary conversations that I'll hope to be able to flag up in in the next, you know, or this next year where we can point to uh I would say more open doors for just these kinds of conversations, and and I'm excited to continue to bring them together.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

Great. Yeah, and absolutely look forward to to seeing you know what may may come out of of all of that work. And I'll put links in the the show notes for the for the episode to where people can find the Lake Institute and follow them, uh follow you guys on Twitter. Uh, absolutely. Just remains to say thanks ever so much for coming on the podcast. It's been great having a chance to chat uh and you know wish you all the best with all of your future endeavors. Oh, thanks so much. Okay, great. Well, my thanks again to David for coming on the podcast. It was great to have a chance to talk to him. Um I really enjoyed the conversation and learnt a lot, and I hope you did too. Um I'll put links in the show notes, as promised, to some of the things we talked about and places where you can find information on David's work and the work of the Lake Institute. Um if you're interested more broadly in issues around philanthropy and civil society, do follow me on Twitter at Rodri underscore h underscore Davis or at for literacy if you want stuff that's more about the historical side of things. If you've got ideas for topics we could cover or people I could interview on the podcast, uh do drop us a line. You can find the email at the podcast website which is philanthropisms.com. Uther than that, just like, subscribe, tell all your friends about it, uh do pass on the good words to anyone that you think might be interested in this podcast, and I'll see you next time. Bye.