SPEAKER_00 0:37

Hello, you're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast. This is the podcast where we try to put philanthropy in context. I'm your host, as ever, Rodri Davis, and this week we are in conversation with Joshua Amponsem. Now, Joshua is one of the founders and uh directors of a new uh initiative called the Youth Climate Justice Fund, um which has recently launched and was launched at UN Climate Week not that long ago. Um and it's a fascinating uh new fund um that exists essentially to try and raise philanthropic money and attract philanthropic money and distribute it in a trust-based and participatory way to youth-led climate movements and individual activists. Um I sat down very recently with Joshua to uh talk about um the thinking behind the fund, what the story was so far, how it had come about and what they're aiming to do with it. And also to talk about some of the wider issues. Um things like why so little philanthropy currently is focused at climate issues, despite the fact that we're all increasingly aware of the urgency of these issues. And even where philanthropy is focused on climate issues, why so little of it currently goes towards uh environmental justice causes and particularly youth-led causes. Again, particularly when a lot of uh youth-led climate work is so prominent in our awareness of those issues and the need to address them more urgently. We talked about whether some of the challenges there were about the perceived risks of funding individual activists and youth-led movements from the point of view of traditional funders and foundations and how you could overcome that, and whether it was about changing the mindset about what risk actually was, or whether it was about trying to make some of those risks more palatable in a pragmatic sense, and whether an intermediary like uh the Youth Climate Justice Fund could play that role. Um we talked also more broadly about some of the challenges around funding movements, uh social movements, and kind of more radical activism, and whether actually one of the strengths of that type of activism often was that it was able to engage in different kinds of approaches and tactics that maybe traditional non-profits aren't able to, and whether that was something that was an opportunity in terms of greater impact, but also presented you know, presents a challenge in terms of uh getting that that kind of comfort and and level of risk acceptance. We talked about what youth-led climate movements and activists actually need, um, apart from money, um, particularly thinking about quite practical things like the need for security and investment in in the infrastructure that gives them safety, because in many places in the world, obviously engaging in in climate justice work is a high risk endeavour. Um we talked about trying to get away from the sort of top-down models of donors uh and funders setting strategy and direction and kind of having programmatic approaches to funding, which don't really work when you're trying to fund movements, and what that means as well in terms of things like the desire to measure impact and and how we get away from impact measurements that are kind of imposed upon recipients and constrain their ability to work in the ways that they need to. Um we also uh talked more broadly about the kind of issues of power uh within philanthropy and power dynamics and about how uh the Youth Climate Justice Fund is trying to overcome that in the way it's structured itself, and also by adopting a kind of participatory approach to its grant making and what what is important and good about that, but also some of the challenges um that it brings. Um and we also talked about the question of where money comes from and and particularly in the context of climate, the question of whether there are ethical concerns sometimes about the sources of certain money and the the environmental harms that have been done in making them and what that means for the legitimacy of accepting them and what that means for the organizations that need the resources to do the work, and how the Climate Justice Fund is trying to navigate some of those challenges. And so without further ado, let's go into the conversation. I thought it was an absolutely fascinating one. Um it brought together lots of things that I'm really interested in around climate, around social movements, around uh uh just social justice approaches, uh, and around you know, kind of practical approaches like um participatory grant making. So there's loads and loads of stuff in there. So I hope you'll really enjoy it. I certainly did. Um and I will be back at the end for the usual bit of housekeeping. Okay, great. Well, I'm here with Joshua Amponstem. Hi there, Joshua. Hello. Uh well, great to have you on the podcast. Um, and for people listening, Joshua, as you'll have heard already, is from the Youth Climate Justice Fund. Um, it's a relatively new organization. I know that the launch was only a few weeks ago as we talk. Um, maybe maybe the the best place to start is for you to explain a little bit about what the Youth Climate Justice Fund is, how the organization came about, and and what you're trying to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Thanks. Thanks. So uh I'm very excited to be talking to you, Rodri. Um it's been an exciting journey for us. And as you said, we launched just a couple of weeks ago. Um, it's been an incredible journey that started already in 2021 uh uh at COP26 when we uh uh uh worked to start uh a study, which will which we call the Youth Climate Justice Study. Uh, and this was a study to really understand where philanthropic money on climate was going and um how much that is going to youth climate justice groups. But this was because um um the youth climate justice movement has been on the forefront of uh really uh uh rallying support, raising ambition, holding policymakers accountable. Um, and in many spaces that, as young people, we would go to, we would hear uh a lot of decision makers, stakeholders uh saying that they they really have so much confidence in the youth movement, uh and statements like the last generation to solve the climate crisis, or uh uh uh the the young people have it figured out and they're gonna solve the crisis and uh and they're gonna make it work. And in hearing all of these things, realizing that um um they were not statements that were accompanied with the resources that is required to take that leadership um on climate action, uh, particularly uh when it when it comes to the 1.5 degrees and making sure that we were on track. So we started and within our own movement, realizing that um resources were difficult. And I uh uh personally uh have had a long journey working with uh youth climate justice movements and youth uh organizations in Africa, supporting them uh uh for almost eight years, uh, and also working internationally, supporting uh climate organizations and youth led organizations around the world, knowing that in the global south, and for many minority groups, even in the global north, having access to funding is very difficult. Um, and when they have access, it's typically uh very restricted uh access to money that doesn't allow them to really grow and do the things that they really believe in. So we started with the youth climate justice study, uh uh um which really came out with this figure that 0.76% of climate philanthropy was going to youth climate justice organizations. And majority of that was to organizations based in the US. Uh, and for groups uh mostly in the global south and even some minority groups in the global north, uh having access was really difficult. So we, based on that, developed the Youth Climate Justice Fund and started up to be an organization that provides unrestricted, flexible core uh funding to youth climate justice groups that are focused on three key areas. One, raising ambition on climate change, knowing that currently all commitments we have and all the policies that exist are not going to help us to reach the Paris Agreement. And even in some cases, there is a very fine line that we might miss the 1.5 degrees if you've not missed it already. So the agent needs to raise ambition and to really uh uh move very fast on that is super critical. Then the second point is supporting groups that are that are holding policymakers accountable and knowing that that is one thing that the youth climate justice movement have done incredibly well, um, and being able to resource such groups so that commitments that are already made, uh countries do not backtrack on that. And we've seen that with uh the the the different policies that have existed, the the the Green Deal in the EU. Um, of course, as one example, but many other examples in different places where uh uh agreements are signed and endorsed, um, and policymakers and government do not necessarily really move ahead on that and instead the backtrack. So, really making sure that we hold them to those policies and agreement that are already there. And then the third part is really building the next generation of climate leaders, um, and that is really investing in the professional development uh and the growth uh uh and capacity development of uh the youth climate justice movement uh to make sure that they end up in places of influence and power, that they can actually be the ones in the decision-making seat and make those decisions themselves. So that is what we've established, uh, and that is the journey so far.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Um yeah, and I'd I'd love to, I mean, there's lots I want to pick up on there. I guess the the first question is just in terms of that, those ambitions that you you are you've outlined there, what role is the Youth Climate Justice Fund intending to play in between sort of existing donors, whether those are institutional funders or individual funders, um, and the organizations and the individual activists you're trying to support? Is it a case of just uh kind of identifying that they're there and trying to raise awareness amongst potential funders? Or are you trying to position yourselves to play a role in helping to kind of distribute funds more effectively or to manage some of the risks that there might be perceived in giving to some of these slightly uh more kind of progressive groups?

SPEAKER_01 11:09

So, very good question. Um, when we started our journey, what we realized was that uh in the philanthropic world, um, we have heard in many times that uh some institutional foundations and even new funders would want to give money to the youth climate justice movement, but in many cases, they would use language like uh, I don't understand the movement and I don't want to get it wrong. And it seems very risky, uh, and it would be nice if it was there was a sort of de-risking, and how do I trust the group and how do I support them? And what if I get it wrong? So there were a lot of worries that uh uh organizations were having, and hence they would want to support a youth uh movement, but they would not be able to give the money or trust the money in the hands of young people, which was very disheartening for us to hear. So, what the youth climate justice fund is doing is building that infrastructure to be able to hold money and be able to uh uh move money to youth climate justice groups uh and really be able to uh help funders and uh philanthropic actors and advisors and entities to really uh uh use us as the medium to de-risk uh whatever the risks are, if it's a question of trust, if it's a question of not understanding how the movement organized, how they operate, and how well to support them and how the support could look like. So these are a lot of things that uh a lot of questions that uh funders have, uh, and we are doing uh different things to help um resolve that. So, in addition to being an intermediary in ourselves, where we help to really be in a traditional sense a red grantor, uh if I'm to use that word, uh, and have grantee partners identify grantee partners and be able to uh resource them, which is exactly what we're doing now in fundraising to fund youth climate justice groups. We are also uh organizing uh different events uh uh and something we call the Funders Academy, uh, where we take funders on a journey and bring youth climate justice movement uh leaders uh and individuals uh to be able to interact with funders to help funders understand uh what the movement is, what the issues are, and how support could be uh uh could be useful and needed uh to allow funders to really get comfortable with funding within the movement, because in many cases we realize that when uh when some foundations or even some uh uh donors think of the youth climate justice movement, they have a very narrow way of thinking about it. Either they think of it as uh uh uh just students or they think of it as a group that just do protest, or they think of it as people who just make demands and they do not really uh do anything aside just complaining or asking for something. Uh, but and really being able to show them uh how young people are um not just doing those things that they have narrowly seen and that influence the way they think by showing them a diversity of activities that young people do to really uh help bring the world closer to our climate commitments that become very comfortable for them to realize that the youth climate justice movement is bigger than what they think it is, and there's not one particular movement. It's movements because there are so many different actors in play that in play. There are uh different uh uh groups uh uh working on different issues: security, safety, well-being, resilience, adaptation. There are those who are really focused on policy reforms, uh, and this diversity are very all very important uh for actors to know. So we are doing that and taking funders on a journey uh that we can educate them, um, learn from what they want to achieve and how we can help them really see the urgency on climate, particularly for foundations of funders who are uh now entering into the philanthropy landscape and are wondering where where is my resource or where is the money worth placed, uh, and really working and you know building that urgency on climate and particularly for the youth climate justice movement. So that is something that we do. Um and in addition to that, uh of course, because of this research we did on the 0.76%, our goal is also to be able to uh uh um grow that number or that the amount of resources that goes to youth climate justice movement. So uh, and acknowledging that we really uh it's not just going to be the Youth Climate Justice Fund, but really encouraging and advising and supporting the philanthropic sector as a whole to increase the share of funding they have in their entities or organizations and institutions, uh uh uh their fair, the amount of the share that goes to young people, really increasing that. So that is also essential to us. For organizers and our movement, which which we we come from and we are part of, we've set up a participatory groundmaking model that allows us to really work closer with the movement uh to make sure that we are able to uh uh um do this education and fund the engagement in a way that really empowers uh the youth climate justice movement. So that is very essential to us. Uh we identify organizations that are doing amazing work on the ground, but we also have an open call uh process that allows any organization at all that align with our objectives, uh, as I outlined earlier, to be able to reach out to us or make an application. Uh, and we have uh um uh a governance structure that allows us to be participatory and allow uh uh engagement and relationship building and trust building for groups that we we might not even know of at all, and emerging groups that are now uh cropping up to be able to know about our work and get in touch with us, uh and for us to be able to support them. So that is what we do on both sides. Um, um, and a big part of our vision is also to build a youth-to-youth capacity development that allow uh uh young people to support each other uh even more strongly in a professional capacity and make sure that experiences, the insights uh within the movement uh are able to grow, document, be documented, and well-nurtured that it flows from one generation of activists to the other generation because no one stays youth forever. Uh and those lessons are super essential.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Yeah, and it's really fascinating. Again, you know, loads loads I'd like to pick on there and think around the participatory elements of the model. I guess the question that occurred to me was as you were talking um first was what's your sense at the moment of the potential appetite amongst funders for funding, well, both more climate work in general, but also specifically making sure that a greater proportion of that goes to youth-led and kind of climate justice-focused efforts? Because I know you've already said that a very small proportion of climate uh philanthropy currently goes towards that kind of work. And actually the proportion of philanthropy as a whole that goes towards climate is still depressingly small. Um, but do you feel as though there's an opportunity to get funders who maybe traditionally haven't seen themselves as funding climate issues to engage because they realize that they were at a moment where it's not really a case of this only being relevant for particular funders or environmental funders, but but everyone needs to do something?

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yes, I I think that I think that gradually uh there is that there is that change and it's happening slowly. Um and I think it could be accelerated pretty much. Um I guess that the big question here is that we forment we fundamentally believe that you know the the all the other issues that philanthropy targets are are relevant and important. And at the same time, climate affects all of them. So um we wouldn't want someone taking resources away from say, say, health or education and putting into climate because they are all one way or the other together. I think what is important is that for other funders who are not primarily uh a climate funder, really making sure that they embed climate into their work. I think that is very, very essential. That is very important. And even the bigger question is how do we unlock more philanthropic money uh into this work? Uh, because I think it's it shouldn't be a competition between one issue versus the other. Uh, because uh I know that you know in many contexts, particularly for the areas that we fundamentally focus on, which is the global south, uh, a climate is not climate as an isolated issue. It's it's a health issue, it's an education issue, it's it's a human rights issue, it's gender uh uh uh issues. And I think these are all very, very important. Uh, but the moment you you miss the climate angle, what what happens is that the impact of climate could decelerate or really like take everything back back to where it was before, which is all the investment that have already gone in uh to increase uh uh uh education or classroom participation or even gender uh equality in some contexts could all go back because there is water stress, uh, water scarcity, because there is extreme heat, uh, because there's food insecurity, uh, and all of these could really uh make any other development effort or any other uh uh issue very, very important. So this is this is how we are we this is how we see it, and we're really trying to um educate uh uh and encourage all uh the the found the institutional foundations to really think about how do you bring climate into your work and how do you make sure that uh um you can unlock more philanthropic money in addition to whatever that is there, uh uh and putting focus on climate into your existing work. That that is very important. And we take this position because the Youth Climate Justice Fund, uh um, as the name says climate justice is not necessarily a climate issue. So we fund uh and support groups that are working on the intersectionality of climate and other social justice issues. The reason for this is just what I said before, because in those communities uh uh where uh the climate impacts are extremely high and where communities are at risk the most, the issues are not necessarily climate in isolation. It's it's climate with all the other social inequalities that already exist that need to be dealt with and that intersection with climate. So funding intersectionality is very important to us. And I think that is where we have the biggest challenge because a lot of funders, uh majority of funders, are literally not working from the intersectionality lens. So they all have a strategy and buckets of parts of money that they work with. And if you do not have fields fit into a bucket, They do not know how to fund you, which makes it extremely difficult for a group that is working on the ground at the community level on intersectionality to really be able to align with one single strategy or bucket of a funder to be able to unlock resources from there. And funders might not be able to identify such group as a potential grantee because they do not fit into their internal strategy. So currently we've been fundraising unrestricted. We are fundraising to be able to support groups that are working on such intersectionality. And that is difficult because it's easier for funds for foundations to say that, oh, I'm very interested in sayodiversity work in the Amazon basin or something like that. And that is great. But what that happens is that for someone who is working on land reclamation, indigenous rights, or culture preservation, that might not necessarily fit very well. And that person might feel more uh not might not identify as a grantee to such a funder, meanwhile, being able to restore that culture and be able to claim uh uh uh uh uh lands that belong to indigenous people would help restore biodiversity and preserve biodiversity uh uh in a in a in a in a way that might not be able to be easily described as straightforward. So these are some of the issues that is making it really difficult to uh have uh groups that are doing the most to access uh resources and they get the least. And I think being able to really uh um draw these connections, give this uh uh uh stories and be able to uh uh get funders to really see it from that perspective and uh uh uh have uh uh take more intersectionality approach and multi-solving approach is very critical.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

And and as an intermediary, then, would you see the role of Youth Climate Justice Fund being partly to allow funders that maybe still do have a more siloed mindset to fund intersectionally by sort of translating essentially the work of activists and groups on the ground into things that make more sense to the funders? Or is it more about getting the funders to change the way that they think and to change their funding practices so that they are giving more long-term unrestricted funding? Or is it a case of sort of trying to do both at the the same time just to just to pragmatically get the money to where it's needed?

SPEAKER_01 24:29

I think I think that the the most essential thing um that we have to recognize is that I think for long philanthropy has been has been perceived as as uh uh a driver of of change. And it shouldn't be because it's just not how it's supposed to be. I think that change is driven by by communities and by movements and by uh those who are really living that everyday reality, what philanthropy does is to serve as a catalyst to accelerate that work. And that what that fundamentally or essentially means is that philanthropy should align with what people need and what the groups need as opposed to what they think is needed. Uh and I think that is that is the the core of the issue here, because if if you want to translate what a group is doing to fit your strategy one way or the other, you are also having influence on that group for them to believe that what you have in your strategy is what they should be focusing on because that's where money is. And for so long, we've seen how when big foundations announce their strategy or publish their strategy over the next few years, how many organizations tend to change their own work to align with those things because that is where the money is. And that is a fundamental flaw in the philanthropic sector. I think what needs to happen is really philanthropy acting as uh as an entity to serve uh uh what what movements and organizations and groups on the ground, particularly very, very much locally led groups and what they require, uh I think that that will have more influence. And that aligns very much with the fact that the being able to support such groups uh in an unrestricted manner, but also accompanying them on a journey, which is what we've been doing, is really important to is very important because it helps us to learn even more beyond just the financial transaction, what is needed, what is essential, what is most vulnerable to uh uh uh to our partners on the ground. Um it helps us to understand what success looks like to them, what makes them happy, what they see as progress, what they consider as relevant for their culture, their sector, their community, their country. And these are all the things that you would not necessarily be able to get if you already have your very strong sort of um uh strategy around particular themes of issues that need to be that need to be achieved. Um so I think having that flexibility uh and going on a journey with with um yeah, with the the the grantee partners, uh locally led organizations and actors to understand that need and working with them to support what they need, uh uh to unlock impact and accelerate impact, I think that is very essential.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah, absolutely. And you and you mentioned that there at the end about unlocking impact. Um, and one of the things I wanted to ask as a follow-up, actually, in terms of what you're saying there about funders needing to get away from approaching funding these issues with their own sort of uh preconceived notions of of what the issues are and how and um what the priorities are, does that also apply to their ambitions when it comes to measuring their impact? Because obviously a lot of funders, you know, have one of the their kind of red lines is that they want to be able to measure the impact of what they do. But I've heard from you know many people, particularly sort of smaller grassroots organizations, that often that presents a real challenge because it the the measurement is decided by the funders' priorities and then imposed on them. And obviously that's a huge issue. Would you sort of again see any part of your role as trying to provide methods of measuring impact that kind of satisfy funders but are appropriate for uh the organizations and activists on the ground? Or are you trying to get people to sort of move away from that mindset of needing to measure and shift more towards trust-based relationships that allow them to kind of have the confidence that they know their money is is working?

SPEAKER_01 28:34

I I think that um primarily having a trust-based relationship is ideal, uh, and we're highly and highly encourage that. And that's why we are encouraging all our uh sort of um uh uh funders to do, uh, but also partners in many ways to do. The reason for that is that impact is a very relative term and would mean different things to different people. The challenge with whether the impact is defined by uh uh the grantee or the intermediary or the one who holds the money, what happens is that you already preset something that allows everyone to think that that is set in stone and it has to be achieved, which is wrong because in many cases things change very it's so dynamic that you cannot just have one thing or a set of things that are set in stone that needs to be met. Um uh the changes in you know in political landscape, uh uh the change in economic landscape, all of that could really influence what impact is. Uh and hence a trust-based model uh uh and relationship allow you to redefine this as you go on the journey. Uh, and if due to social, political, economic issues, uh uh uh impact is defined differently, then yeah, you you go with that. Uh but I think that having these things that are super set in stone can be very critical. Having said that, what is very important is really allowing the grantee partners, uh uh the the the those we work with, the movement, really to understand what is the overall goal that's trying to achieve. And understanding that as the funder is is very important because then you see the bigger picture, you can forget about the nitty-gritty, but really focus on the bigger picture and asking yourself, how can we work with this partner to get to that point? And what do they need to be able to get to that point and doing an assessment with them to really understand how do they get there? Uh, I think that is very, very important. And I mean, uh uh, as you said, funders always have a strategy which is essential to them, and they want to be able to report on that and they want to be able to tell stories about that, which is which is great, and and you know that is uh that is uh essential to them. I think it's very important if we do it rather the the reverse way, where uh uh funders really define that after really assessing or talking to all their all their the other partners they work with on the ground who are really leading the work and living every day in in these issues that are very, very important to them. And they wake up every day, you know, having to deal with that and understand what is impact and how is this defined and how unique, diverse it is, and having a way to translate that uh into how they want to work with these partners, I think that is very, very important because it's it's I find it very, very difficult when uh we talk about impact as if it's something that we could all have one meaning to it and one sense of accomplishment towards it. Uh because when you when you when you are far and you think of your your your money and you think of impact, it is very and the and the widener between where the money is and what is happening on the ground is so far, even right, and the the different processes it has to go through to reach the groups that it really has to reach, that already a lot of things get lost in translation and in meaning. So, how do you define impact as a funder, you know, uh knowing that some bunch of funders never even get a chance to actually meet their grantees or have a direct conversation with their grantees, which is a gap that we're trying to close as well. But how do you define an impact in that way? It's it's almost impossible. So uh it's really essential that we do it the reverse way and really understand what is the community we're trying to serve, what is very important to them, what gets them thinking at night, what gets them waking up every day and going, stepping out and doing what they do. And that is impact because that is what keeps them going, that is what they they live for, that is what they are going through in in all these difficult contexts, whether it being you know all the different uh uh uh uh sociopolitical, ecological crisis that we're seeing, they are living that life. And what impact means to them is should be the most important thing that we should all keep in mind.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah, absolutely. Um and in terms of that, you know, I absolutely agree about the the idea that the using the word impact as if it clearly means the same thing to multiple different people is is ridiculous. So I know I totally agree. I guess in in terms of your, you know, it's definitely true. I guess the basis on which you know your organization has been formed is that youth climate justice movements and activists have been having an effect and you know are some of the people certainly who've been most prominent in the last few years in terms of driving awareness around climate issues and kind of getting meaningful change. And and I just wanted to come back to something you mentioned um at the start of the podcast, which is that um, you know, often they they have done that maybe through using approaches and tactics that traditional nonprofits or philanthropic funders you know might not have thought of or might be slightly uncomfortable with. So things that go more towards direct action or civil disobedience or strategic litigation. Um it is in your view, does it sort of present a challenge to trying to engage philanthropic funders that that's the case? Or is there an opportunity there to convince them that actually there's a much wider set of tools out there that might be effective on these big climate issues that we're all trying to address?

SPEAKER_01 34:12

I I think that the strength of every movement is the diversity in the movement. Um, I think that is that is the first thing that we need to we need to acknowledge. And yes, it's been difficult working with some foundations and some funders around what the youth movement is, the youth climate justice movement. And that is exactly because of what you said. The approach that some groups use might be very unattractive to others. You know, while some foundations are very happy to see a big giant flag on on the you know, campaigning against something and being on the street, others are very reserved on that, right? And others get more excited when they see a big news article on on New York Times or The Guardian or something. So everyone is attracted to something and opposed to something. That is the case. What it does is that all these different diverse approach, if it is all embedded within the movements, that is what achieves results, right? We have some doing research and coming up with data that the other group will take and go out there and shout about it and really demand that they see results about it. And you have others lobbying, you know, in the in the government offices and in the lobbies and trying to get uh the different policy reforms. You have those writing articles and educating the public about it. We have some who would do artwork and use music and culture and arts and culture, creative arts to drive influence about this. Influence is driven in diverse ways, and I think we need to acknowledge the power of each of these things. I think that the risk that we face is the idea that one of these efforts are more if are more better than the other and should be the one that gets uh all the resources because it's it's it's more effective by one individual or a particular group's translation. And I think that would be the flaw because the the way resources achieved is having all of these things in place, which means that we need to be have we need to be comfortable in supporting different groups and what action and what solution and what being able to achieve change mean to them. Um I think this is very, very essential. Um, I think that the the way we are we are approaching this uh uh and also educating funders about this is that it should it should really be a question about how much we as as as activists and and and and intermediaries and funders, what is our duty of care to the groups that we support? And what what infrastructure are we willing to invest in to make sure that there is safety, well-being, support, security infrastructures to do that. Because while others are others get very, very, very, very wild on the idea of I cannot uh fund a group that that takes on direct action and completely agree that there's a lot of uh issues there. But we've also seen that some of the biggest issues with with the youth climate uh justice movement is pretty much about what these groups are worrying about with all direct action and what happens with it. And it's also very much about all the amount of work that young people do and is not paid. So we have a lot of young people who get invited to speak in events, who get invited to conferences, who get invited to support uh an organization to develop a strategy, to share their thoughts, whatever. And a lot of these young people end up not having a place to sleep, not having uh uh sometimes, you know, someone missed their flight and there's no allowance to rebook flights, they get stranded and they need a lot of support. And these are severe, like uh well-being and support that is needed, in many cases, safety and security around the way that they operate, that is not confrontational at all, that is not direct action at all, and yet comes along with a lot of responsibility that we need to make sure that they they end up safe, still motivated, not discouraged, and being able to do their work. But because that is not necessarily the traditional trigger in the mind of anybody, per se, uh it doesn't tend to get the focus on attention. How do we actually resource the the work that the work that the movement does? Uh uh and how are they actually taking care of themselves? How are they paying their bills? Are they paid to do this? Are they doing voluntary before I send a request to them to come and speak in my event? Am I mindful of how many requests they probably get in a day to do other things? And am I compensating them for their time? These are all the everyday life of many activists, which never gets spoken about. But everyone is so concerned about oh, oh, uh, if they do a strike and they do a direct action, it's really, it's really a big concern because then uh if something goes wrong, I don't know what's going to happen. That is true, but there's also a lot of other things we're not looking at, which is also equally true, and that leads to a lot of trauma for young people. So I think that for us, it's really educating funders and asking the big question around are you willing to invest in infrastructure that allows for well-being, security, uh uh uh uh and safety for the movement to be able to do the work they do? Are they having the resource to do a risk assessment for every uh uh uh activity that they want to do, uh, whether it be in a direct action or a simple uh nonviolent uh direct action or a climate march or even publicly uh calling out something in a newspaper, because while that might be very safe in some part of the world, in another part of the world, a very safe thing like that will then be the biggest threat you have because then it's uh it's it's in the media and everyone sees your name and you become an easy target. So our understanding of safety, security, what is okay to do, what is not okay to do, is very is very skewed based on the funding and where they are based and what they consider safe and not or not, right? Whereas in other places, something safe might be unsafe, and we completely disregard that. So I think that it's really bringing these insights to to to the philanthropic world and to foundations to really understand that uh uh it's not just about you know direct action per se or one particular approach. The diversity of approach is super essential. Um and whatever the approach is, is there the right amount of resources invested in city well-being and security, making sure that uh uh um the movement and its individuals who are involved in that are actually doing well and they can keep doing the work that they do. And none of the actions should be underrated. And that is something that we learned. We see a lot that a lot of people think that oh, one particular way of uh uh uh acting in the in the movement, it's safer and easier than others, but none of them is, because depending on where you are, everything could be a risk or nothing could be a risk. So it's really understanding that and appreciating all of that and being able to put the right measures in place.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

And yeah, I mean, uh that really struck me when I was reading the um the research that you'd done um looking at what youth-led climate movements needed, and that you'd obviously identified in that there were things apart from money, some of which was around sort of leadership training and support. But the the one that really jumped out at me was around that need for safety and physical protection, which is which is obvious when you say it, but but actually I think it's it's easy for funders, particularly who sort of work in large institutions and particularly in the global north, to probably be quite naive about the actual reality of what it means to be a young climate activist and to think that it's you know it's all about school strikes or going on relatively safe public marches. And actually, in many parts of the world, as you point out, it it isn't. It's a you know, you're really on the front line of quite sort of contentious issues that may put you in in sort of physical danger or fear of reprisal. And actually, you know, thinking about that in your funding seems hugely important. Um, so yeah, that really struck me. Um one thing I wanted to ask you, because I'm I'm aware I'm in danger of going too too long, but I wanted to come on to was um just a question about the the where philanthropic resources come from. Because it's it's not a problem that's unique to certainly to you as an organization or to climate, but there there is a kind of constant question about whether the sources of wealth and how money's been made in the first place affect the legitimacy of trying to give it away through philanthropy. Um, and you know, there's lots of concerns that some money is sort of tainted in some sense and that organizations should steer clear of it because if they take the money, it will mean that they're morally or ethically compromised. And I suppose when you're doing work around climate and particularly around climate justice, and you're also trying to sort of bring in an element of youth justice as well, the stakes are that much higher. So, what have you been, you know, what conversations have you had so far within the Youth Climate Justice Fund about some of those challenges that might come as potentially you're faced with sources of funding that may, you know, directly come from things like extractive industries or fossil fuels or indirectly be linked to them, and whether it's okay to take that money and pass it on to climate activists, or whether you know judgments need to be made about some of the kind of trade-offs that come in doing that.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Yeah, I mean, it's it's uh it's one of the one of the things that we had to very much at the very beginning uh uh uh make a decision about. And our position is pretty much every new funder that steps into the philanthropic field or existing ones that might want to fund us. We have a steering committee that is composed of some of the leading youth climate sort of justice activists that that exist, and they will make a decision on that. Uh uh, and their decisions are based on the guidelines of not necessarily so much about where the money is coming from versus. What is it still involved with? So and that is very essential to us because we want to be able to transform how philanthropic giving is done and how it's perceived. And part of that is making sure that there is not money that just sits in some sort of an endowment or investment that is still investing in sources that do not align with the climate justice movement and using the money or the proceeds to act in philanthropy, which would be very completely not the way we see things. So that is very clear for us that if there is any uh uh current source of funding that is still associated, related, and working uh uh uh not just for software, which is the obvious, but also other social justice issues that do not align with the work that we do, that would be a very big question mark for us uh uh in terms of uh uh not being able to work with such funding. Um, I think that the the uh our team is very much also in a way of being able to work with um with funders and then particularly new ones who are stepping into the field around you know the different ways of the different ways of of investing money. And we've seen a few cases, some uh people stepping into the philanthropic world and saying that I'm spending down and it's not going to go into investment and using the outcomes to set up a foundation. Here's the money, and I just and I want it out, and I want it to go to a good cause. Uh uh and I think those are models that we're beginning to see, and we're encouraging that um uh and also pretty much really uh encouraging funders uh uh for us, really working with those who are very much understand the agency on climate and making sure that their wealth uh uh uh is not uh uh going into anything that makes the fight on climate any any any difficult. Um so the it's pretty much the the cleaner the the the the the the the person and the and the institution and the organization and the business uh uh uh the better it is for us to accept the money. And if it if there is still any sort of association, then that makes it very difficult.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Yeah, absolutely. I think it is those practical criteria that that really make the difference. And it's really interesting to hear that you have direct involvement um from you know some of the youth uh climate activists that you work with uh in making those decisions, because that's that's a form of uh participation. And reminds me, I wanted to come back to to something you mentioned earlier about the that participatory model when it comes to the grant making as well, which obviously seems like a natural fit with what you're trying to do and your focus on justice and trying to empower young people. Um, is that something you know so far in your conversation with with funders that you've seen an enthusiasm for? Because I know there's there's a lot of talk in the philanthropy world more broadly about participation and models which enable it and perhaps less action on the ground. So is it something that you've seen funders actually are quite uh interested in when they hear that there is this model that's actually been developed that might allow them to fund climate issues in a participatory way?

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Yeah, I think that a lot of people get excited about it, but uh I guess the the excitement is oh tell me more. Yeah. And then they look into within themselves and and the reasons why they are not doing it are the questions they ask us. And that causes difficult. It's actually a much longer process than if you would not do it, right? Uh so it's not something that is necessarily fun to do, uh, it's more difficult to do because then you you yeah, you run into a risk of you know having to take a lot of input and being able to bring all that input together to arrive at a decision which is more difficult because of diverse views and opinion and thoughts. Um, so it is it is one way or the other a very difficult thing. Uh, and I think the enthusiasm around it is more, oh, tell us more and let us know how you're doing it. Uh, and and that also leads to some asking us, okay, you got to make sure that you also take good care of yourselves because it seems exhausting as a process. Uh, but for us, there is no other way that we could do this without a participatory process because the the the youth climate justice movement uh uh uh it's it's really shaped around sort of you know trust, integrity, uh uh, and confidence. Uh and I think that if we do not do a participatory model, we will not be able to give the movement uh these these sort of uh qualities that really defines uh uh uh results for the movement. So being able to go back to them and let them know uh and have representatives from the movement there to define where is the money coming from, how is it giving, uh uh uh making sure that it's all unrestricted and flexible. It doesn't dictate what groups should do, it allows groups to actually do what they want to do. I think that is all very important to us, and also educating the grantees, partners, and the organizations as well on where who you know where their funding is coming from, which a lot of uh it doesn't happen. I've been in that position where I received funding from you know an intermediary grantor that I applied to and I didn't even know where the source of the money was and if if I would want to take that money or not, uh, and no education around that. So I think these are things we are doing, which um for us is very important and really allow us to build even more trust with both existing and existing and emerging movements, and that is very important to us. Um, on the uh in terms of our decision-making uh uh process as well. So we have uh uh regional leads, uh uh uh which you can call them regional advisors, uh um, but instead of advising just on who gets uh uh advising within their region, we have designed them as regional leads in a way that they actually allow us to source and understand and uh uh know the dynamics within the regions. And they are movement leaders who are focused primarily their their work within their region, and they help us know what are the groups that are really leading work on the ground that are missing their resources, that are working on intersectionality, um, and how do we fund safer, better uh within those regions, uh, knowing that sometimes funding uh to a particular group in a region can also cause a lot of uh disruptions uh negatively for other groups. So, really understanding all these dynamics are important to us, and we have regionalists to support us to do that, but also they actively taking part in the decision making on where do money go and accompanying the grantee partners during the implementation phase with other support that they will need beyond the money, uh, and being able to connect them to other uh uh projects or developments happening within the region uh where their project is based. So these are all um process we've put in place uh uh together with, of course, our steering committee, uh with the staff and the regional leads working together uh to drive the fund. So that is how our model looks like, uh, in addition to having an open call, which allow everyone to reach us. And I think that one of the things that I can confidently say is the first thought that we would do an open call. A lot of a lot of you know foundations told us no, this is smartness, because you guys are from the movement and you would have a lot of people applying. How are you gonna manage that? And why don't you use their version of you know trust-based? But for us, the question was who I mean, who are we to define what is trustworthy and what's not? And sometimes when you use that model, you also end up just with a circle of you know people you know, and you're never able to identify other others who are not within your circles, and that was just not something we could afford as well. Uh uh, so we opened ourselves up, we we had a lot of uh groups applying, and and we put a structure in place to be able to deal with that. And that is a bit that is for us a more uh uh uh acceptable approach uh uh for us uh than relying on just those we know already and the network and and calling that necessarily like primarily a trust process because it wouldn't be yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Yeah, which I think is fascinating because I I've heard from a few people involved in sort of trust-based approaches that one of the uh the potential dangers that doesn't always get talked about is exactly as you say, that trust is seen as a good thing, but it can become exclusionary if if you end up just talking to the people that you already know. And how do you allow that space to develop new connections? Well, unless you have some form of kind of open call or mechanism to allow people to apply, it's very difficult to do that. Um listen, I'm aware I'm I'm coming up on the hour, Joshua, and I just want to uh say, you know, thanks ever so much for your time. It's been absolutely fascinating to hear about the work you're doing. Um, I will put links in the show notes to where people can find more information about the Youth Climate Justice Fund and about the research that you've done. Um, but just a chance for you um at this point, you know, if you've got any particular events coming up or things that people um should keep an eye out for, um, you know, please let us know.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Yeah, I think we had some of our big events for the year already uh uh uh happening uh in the last couple of weeks. Uh we will definitely um uh be at COP28. Um so that if you want to, you know, if you're there, you want to chat, you can find us, uh uh not get in touch. Um that is worth mentioning. Uh, and also that we we are still uh, I mean, our website is up and running, and we will have a new uh section coming up very soon with updates about the fund. Um, but that is something to note, and we've also made it in a way that if you go to the website, you can actually see where we are in the decision-making process. So if you go to how to apply, you'll see it over there. You'll see exactly where we are in our decision-making process. So you can follow the process as well. Um, but yeah, that is it. And uh, if you are for founders who are listening or those thinking of stepping into philanthropy or foundations, we'll be happy to like really get in touch to have a conversation, and we'll be happy to chat with you uh around our approach and how we think that you know the the climate justice movement needs to be served and take you like walk a journey with you uh uh um as we step into this field.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

Yeah, and hopefully, you know, many of them will uh take you up on that offer. Um just rain to say thanks ever so much for coming on the podcast and wish you all the best with with your work and we'll definitely uh keep an eye on how things develop.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Great. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Yeah. Okay, great. Well, my thanks again to Joshua for coming on the podcast. It was uh really great to have the chance to talk to him about, you know, a really exciting initiative that's in the early stages, but I think has got a huge potential to grow. Um I'll put links in the show notes as a promise to where you can find more information about the Youth Climate Justice Fund. Uh, you can find some things that Joshua's written about the work that they're doing. Um I'll also put some links in the show notes to other things that that I've written or said that might be relevant and interesting. Um if you're uh interested more broadly and your appetite for writing and thinking about philanthropy and civil society is not yet quenched. Um can you quench an appetite? No, I think that's a mixed metaphor. If your thirst for those things is not quenched, um do check out the website at whyphilanthropymatters.com. Um you can follow me on social media. You're probably better off these days to start with LinkedIn, because like a lot of people, I think I'm sort of migrating away from Twitter or X, as we now have to call it. I'm still there for now. Um I'm there at as uh at Rodri underscore H underscore Davis. Um but I am using the platform less and less. Uh I'm also on Threads and Blue Sky experimenting with those. So please do, you know, if you're on those, search me up because I'm looking for more context to make those platforms more useful and usable. Um if you've got ideas for people we could talk to on the podcast or topics that I could take a deep dive into, do drop me an email. You can find the contact details on the website. Other than that, just like, subscribe, tell all your friends. Uh, if you like the podcast, please leave a nice review on iTunes or wherever else you found it, because that really helps. Uh, and I will see you next time. Bye.