SPEAKER_01 0:12

You're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast with Rodri Davis. Hello, you're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast. This is the podcast where we try to put philanthropy in context. I'm your host, as ever, Rod Davis, and this week we've got a great conversation for you, and it's with Tyrone McKinley Freeman. Now, Tyrone is an associate professor of philanthropic studies at the Lilly Family School of Philanthropy at Indiana University, Purdue University in Indianapolis, in the US. And as you'll hear during the conversation, he's also the author of a great uh book that came out relatively recently called Madame C. J. Walker's Gospel of Giving, Black Women's Philanthropy during Jim Crow, which, as the name suggests, is all about uh the philanthropy of Madame C. J. Walker, who was uh an entrepreneur, a BT product entrepreneur and a black woman um in the early part of the 20th century and a fascinating figure. Um, but it's also kind of much more broadly about um black people's philanthropy at the time uh and sort of subsequently and and touches on all kinds of other fascinating issues. Um so Tyrone and I had a great uh wide-ranging conversation, and we talked about who Madame CJ Walker actually was and kind of why she was such an important figure in the history of philanthropy and and uh in the the history of black philanthropy particularly. Um we talked about whether what she represented um as uh a kind of independent black woman at a time when uh Jim Crow laws were in place and and the opportunities for black people and for women were very limited, um, as someone who made wealth and became the first self-made female millionaire in the US, but also then used her position to speak out and support others through philanthropy and activism, whether that was sort of just as important as the amounts of money that she gave. Um we talked about the way in which uh Walker fascinatingly kind of blurred the lines between her business uh and uh her ownership of the business and her philanthropy, and the fact that actually you can't really disentangle those two, and whether that's actually not just particular to her, but something that is sort of um quite typical of black philanthropy, certainly at the time, because um black people didn't really have the luxury of div uh of kind of seeing dividing lines between philanthropy and commerce and politics. Um we talked about uh whether uh we need to understand um Madame Walker as primarily a sort of black philanthropist or as a as a woman philanthropist at the time, or whether actually there was a sort of specific and unique experience to to black women and her uh position as a black woman philanthropist that that we also need to understand. Um we talked about the way in which Walker's upbringing and the traditions of giving that she'd been brought up in meant that her philanthropy is very interesting because it kind of takes more of a mutual aid and solidarity approach, perhaps, than the the more sort of traditional charity or philanthropy approach, and whether that was something that she was able to maintain as a level of wealth grew and and how she kind of managed to retain, uh remain grounded. Um we talked about uh Madam CJ Walker's role within the field of civil rights and kind of how important civil rights was to her philanthropy and where she sat within that field between people who were kind of calling for uh a pragmatic acceptance of the status quo and and sort of more radical voices. Uh and then finally we had a really interesting conversation about uh how we should understand black or African American philanthropy as a distinct field and sort of what its particular characteristics are and what some of the challenges are, certainly from a historical point of view, in uncovering some of the details and stories, because there isn't really an existing historiography of black philanthropy, and often the the voices uh of individuals and groups that we might want to uh to draw upon in order to understand those stories better are kind of hidden by the archives or their stories are being told for them by other people. Um so without further ado, let's go into the conversation. Uh I will put links in the show notes to lots of things that you can uh also uh read up on that we talk about in the course of that conversation, uh, and I'll be back at the end for the usual bit of housekeeping and tidying up. Okay, great. So I'm here with Tyrone McKinley Freeman. Hi, Tyrone. Hello. Um, great to have you on the podcast. I'm really looking forward to having this conversation. Uh and just for people listening, Tyrone is uh an associate professor of philanthropic studies at the Lilly Family School of Philanthropy at IUPI in the US. Um so we're here, I mean, partly to talk about your work, but sort of specifically centered around your book that came out a couple of years ago, uh, Madam C.J. Walker's Gospel of Giving, uh Black Women's Philanthropy during Jim Crow, which is an absolutely fascinating book that I definitely recommend anyone interested in philanthropy should read. Um and uh I guess the starting point is maybe for you just to say a bit about what brought you into the field of philanthropic studies and what it was that led you to write the book in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Great. Well, thank you very much, Rodri. Um I I started my career as a professional fundraiser, and uh that was something that I stumbled into based on some courses I took in graduate school on proposal writing, but I was kind of introduced to this world of getting and developing resources for nonprofit missions and really kind of got bitten and really taken with it. And so um for several years I worked as a professional fundraiser for um youth and family social service organizations, of community development and higher education. I also was then uh you know transitioned over to the fundraising school, which is an international training institute that helps people learn how to raise money on behalf of nonprofit organizations. And it was around that time that I began going back to university to earn my PhD in philanthropy. So it started very much with from a practitioner base of being out interacting with donors, um, helping to run nonprofit organizations, building community relationships. And then it kind of gradually turned into an interest in larger questions and doing some teaching. And I think my interest in that kind of career path goes back to my upbringing in my family. I come from a long line of ministers and first ladies. Um, and as an African-American, so I grew up in the Black Baptist Church, which is a philanthropic institution that has a deep, rich history of giving and activism. And so kind of grew up in this community that was constantly giving, caring, sharing, engaging. And that really formed my early ideas about philanthropy. Um, and so when I later found myself in the field um and not seeing representation or understanding of African American traditions of giving in fundraising in the formal academic study of philanthropy, that raised some concerns for me and kind of began to help me uh give shape to a research agenda.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Absolutely. And and I certainly want to come onto that wider question of the idea of sort of African-American philanthropy or black philanthropy as a field of study in its own right, and some of the challenges, certainly from a historical point of view, that that throws up, which I think you've written really interestingly about. Um but just to sort of taking the the book first, um, Madame C.J. Walker's Gospel of Giving, um, I guess I mean, I'd really like to hear about kind of what led you to write that. But maybe the starting point for people listening, in case they don't know, is just to say a bit about who Madame C.J. Walker actually was and why we should be sort of interested in her as a philanthropist.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Sure. So so Madame C.J. Walker was an African-American woman, entrepreneur and philanthropist who lived between 1867 and 1919. And this period in American history is a very important one because it is immediately following emancipation from slavery. And so she was born, her birth name was Sarah Breedlove, and she was born into a family that had been enslaved on a cotton plantation, but she was the first freeborn child in that family. And so coming out of that experience, she quickly became orphaned. Her parents died by the time she was seven. Um, she was under the care of her older sister and beginning to move around the American South as what we we know as Jim Crow segregation was beginning to be constructed around her following the demise of Reconstruction, which was a period of time, a 12-year period of time, where America was trying to be a biracial democracy and integrate newly free people into its society. But all that went away and and uh again left behind was this form of segregation, which created African Americans as second-class citizens, uh, lynchings, violence, and lack of opportunity really began to define Sarah Breedlove's early life. And so the story that I wanted to tell is about how she transforms from that experience into this woman who becomes a beauty culture entrepreneur. She starts working for a black woman who owns a beauty culture business in St. Louis named Annie Malone, and from there kind of spins off her own product line. Um, and in the process of doing that, she takes on the identity of Madame CJ Walker. She married a man named Charles Joseph Walker. So that's where the initials come from. And she began knocking on doors and selling this product. And eventually it takes off and it really becomes this national, even international company that is producing products that help Black women during this turn of the 20th century period develop their own beauty aesthetic, uh, surrounded by a society which is kind of upholding white women as a standard of beauty. But Madam Walker gave Black women products so that they could style their hair and present themselves in a way that made themselves feel good and begin to define themselves. So one of the things that was important though is that Madame Walker and the way her story is told is that you know that company enabled her to become very wealthy. She's known as the first self-made female millionaire in America. And then they also is frequently said that she gave to charity. And so I really wanted to know more about what that giving meant and what it looked like and where it came from. And the traditional kind of way of thinking about her is that she's one of these people who acquired this wealth and then began redistributing it much in the same lines as the other well-known philanthropists of the same era, Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller. But as I got into it, realized that no, that actually is not the case. She's not a black Carnegie or a black Rockefeller. She actually was doing something very different. She began giving when she was a much younger, poor, struggling, widowed young mother who's trying to make sense of her own life and provide for her daughter in this Jim Crow society. And so we see her learning to give by being in community, being a part of the Black Church, the African Methodist Episcopal Church, and other women's networks where Black women are engaging in this type of generosity as a matter of course and daily life. And so, in that way, I'm able to show how philanthropy becomes something that unfolds across her lifetime. And so it's not something inspired by uh resources or wealth or affluence, but is rather something that is developed out of a sense of responsibility to others, out of a religious sensibility for her faith, and also out of her own proximity to oppression within the Jim Crow system. And so I trace how her giving develops over time, but starts from these very humble beginnings where everyday people are giving. And it's not something that's limited to the wealthy or the elite, but it's something that's very necessary because Jim Crow uh segregation is intentionally starving black communities, isolating black communities, and creating the situation where they have to turn inward to meet their own needs and also press for freedom. And so that is the actual context for Madame Walker's philanthropy. And in the process of uncovering that story, um, it ends up providing a window into this larger tradition and history of giving and generosity by among and for African Americans.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Yeah, absolutely. And it's it's a fascinating story, and just as a figure in her own right, I mean, uh, what she managed to achieve given the barriers that were placed in a way, you know, as you say, given the time period in which she lived, are quite startling. Um there's a lot I want to pick up on in what you've just said. I guess the the first thing is, as you've said there, actually, her giving is not something that seems to have followed the model of the Carnegie's and the Rockefellers, which we think of as a sort of charitable philanthropic tradition of somebody who eventually has because they've accumulated, then thinking about those who have not and distributing money in that way. But it seems to have been born more out of a sort of sensibility of mutual aid and solidarity that was with her from the outset. Um I guess what I'm I'm really interested in there was as she did accumulate resources and become wealthier, there clearly was a difference between her and other people within that community. Was there ever a point at which it became difficult for her to sort of maintain those links? Or was she always able to uh keep true to her roots and retain those sort of bonds of solidarity because uh there was shared oppression, or she had still sort of fellow feeling with people who were as she was when she started out?

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Yeah, and this also makes her a very fascinating uh subject to study. So, on the one hand, right, she does become wealthy and make no mistake about it, she enjoyed her wealth. So she had multiple cars and multiple houses and enjoyed those kinds of coutrements of her success. But at the same time, we have to remember she's still black, she's still a woman in this racist and sexist context. And so at any moment, she's still very much vulnerable to um lynching, um, you know, raping, all the things that everyday African Americans are dealing with as a part of Jim Crow, you know, she still can be subject to those things. So she can never really escape those things in the way that wealthy white philanthropists can escape their poverty of their youth or other circumstances. She can never get away from it. Um, and so that's something that always contextualizes her giving. The other thing that's really interesting about her is as kind of Sarah Breedlove, the young, struggling, widowed mother who's trying to get on her feet, she's part of, she was part initially of kind of the black masses who were looked to um as being in need of help by middle class African Americans. And so she didn't really have access to some of the women's clubs and other uh spaces where um uh a lot of philanthropic activity was being developed to help people like her. But as Madam Walker, um her her success becomes this proxy that that allows her access to this, this, this, this, this, this other world within the same community, where again, these these middle class African Americans are engaging in philanthropy and racial uplift work to try to deal with racism. And so Madame Walker is someone who can move between class tensions and divisions within the African-American community, which again is a way of keeping that keeps her grounded and connected. And you know, she goes on and she does build this big fancy 34-room mansion in Irvington, New York, uh, exclusively white community. Um, John D. Rockefeller lives 10 minutes away, 10 miles away in a neighboring community. Um, but at the same time, she has a home in Harlem and she's regularly traveling. And and so she stays rooted in her community uh and does a lot of traveling too. She is actually relentless in her schedule. She's constantly visiting black communities, not only selling her products, but speaking out on issues of the day, raising money for Black soldiers in World War I or for uh against lynching and other types of issues that are important and on the ground. So you see her as someone who's very much uh maintaining her rootedness and her connectedness to this community, and at the same time enjoying this wealth and trying to share that. She actually dedicated that mansion to the race, as it were, and used it as a place to hold meetings and convenings where people like um uh W.E.B. Du Bois, a great scholar and civil rights activist, um uh uh Marcus Garvey, who's this black nationalist figure who's emerging at the same time, um, where they're having these conversations about liberation and and protests and what to do about the situations that black people are facing around the country and and the world. So again, someone who um worked hard to maintain her ties and her connectedness uh to the very community that produced her.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

And and do you think, um, sort of given that, that actually it underplays her importance as a philanthropist in some sense to think of her in the same way as we would of Connie Niggie or Rockefeller and just kind of count the amounts of dollars that she's given? Is is there a sense in which what she represented as a kind of role model of an independent black woman at that point in time who then you know didn't change when she became rich, but used her position for racial uplift and to speak out on causes and support others was just as important as the money.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Absolutely. And that's one of the things that I do in the book. You know, the the book has multiple chapters, and each one is named for a different type of gift that she gave, and only one of those chapters is about money. And this was an important reflection not only of her approach to giving, but also the broader African-American tradition of giving, where money is a gift and it is important, but there are other gifts that are important too, because again, we're dealing with a community where the larger society is intentionally depriving them of opportunity and basic sustenance. And so um it is very important to understand her giving on her own terms in this community context. And then that also presents this interesting tension because we tend to place her on a pedestal because she eventually achieves this millionaire status um and and and kind of kind of that that has a way of kind of isolating or separating her from her community. But what I do in this book is I put her back into the context of the Black communities that produced her. And so this is why it's very important to understand her relationship with the African Methodist Episcopal Church and the women of that church who were modeling this form of giving that she eventually adopts and amplifies. And it's also important to understand her in the context of a fraternal order that she was a member of, where again, black women were pooling resources to meet needs of local people in their communities, um, and the ways in which she also connects with national associations like the National Association of Colored Women. So I try to place her in the context of these networks of Black women that produced her, so that we can see that this behavior, these activities, this approach is actually fairly ubiquitous. And you see everyday Black women um engaging in this type of giving, so that when by the time Walker comes along and she does create this platform through her company and develops these resources, she's able to take that and amplify it from her unique position as this entrepreneur who has, you know, who's very well known across the country and even kind of extend that impact. And so uh it's very important to understand those relationships and how she represents again this um this tradition. So sometimes I like to say she's kind of the most extraordinary, ordinary black woman you'd ever meet because of this dynamic, that she really is a reflection of the kind of giving that people were doing on the ground. And at the same time, I would never ever take away from her own moxie and ambition um because she definitely saw herself as a businesswoman and wanted to build something big and important and special. And she did that. She did indeed do that.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah, absolutely. And as you say, I think it feels like there are lots of general lessons, both for the time and ones that have relevance to practice, you know, and debates that are going on now, but also she herself is just a sort of uniquely fascinating figure, maybe because she manages to combine all these different aspects in in such kind of clear ways. Um and one of those aspects actually that I thought was absolutely fascinating in the book was the extent to which it seems almost impossible to disentangle um Madame Walker's role as an entrepreneur and a business owner from her role as a philanthropist. Again, as you say, it's not, oh, she's making money over here with one hand and then she's deciding to do some philanthropy with it. Her business is uh is a part of her philanthropy and she uses it almost seamlessly to kind of uh further her goals. And I think that the thing I found most fascinating about that was you made the you make the point very strongly in the book that this wasn't just because it this was some sort of brilliant sophisticated idea she'd had. It's that that actually black communities and black uh you know business owners at the time didn't have the luxury of distinguishing between philanthropy or between commerce or even between politics. Because they were sort of because of the oppression they faced, they were forced to use all of the tools at their disposal to try and further their goals. Do you think that that's something that we need to understand better when thinking about the history of black philanthropy? And is it something that has important lessons for for now as well?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Absolutely. You know, so one of the things, right? We know the role of the government in maintaining and upholding Jim Crow segregation. We know and we recognize the ways in which the private sector was complicit as well, through its discrimination and locking African Americans out of gainful employment and meaningful ways to take care of themselves. But we also, you know, our own nonprofit sector was complicit here. And we don't often talk about it. Usually, you know, universities get the brunt of it through their role in slavery. But the reality is there were social service agencies that were led by white leaders that would not accept black children or black elderly, you know, um the situation with schools uh and segregation there. This was something that was across the sector there. You know, white mainline uh religious denominations wouldn't accept black parishioners. And so what do you do when all the sectors of society are actively conspiring against you? Um you turn inward, you start building your own. And so, Madam Walker comes along in American history at this period after emancipation where African Americans are frenetically building their own institutions and and again from churches to schools and universities and and daycare centers and and I mean just women's clubs. There's so many, so many things that are being built and constructed. Uh, and and so again, this this again, and it comes out of this notion that, yeah, we have to kind of throw everything we have at this beast of oppression because you know, we don't have the luxury of kind of setting up a separate foundation or thinking about this, as you said, in a compartmentalized way. And this also reflects these historical elements because it turns out that there were other Black entrepreneurs who thought about their businesses in this way. And that how can my business serve the larger good of the race too, and not only get these products out, but how can it do something to advance liberation? Uh, and so Walker very much stands in that tradition. And when we think about it today, I think you know there is a lot of you know, sense that, you know, our social problems are bigger than philanthropy. Um, you know, here in the US, we know that charitable dollars only provide about 12 or 13 percent of the revenues into the nonprofit sector. Um, but government is a big factor in providing dollars and revenues for the sector. Fees for service are very important. So there's a sense there already that our problems are big and kind of require not only government and philanthropy and business and but also individual citizen action to address. And I think Walker becomes an embodiment of this approach because of her role in history. She again gives us a window into the kind of the rootedness of this idea, which continues across the African-American experience. That's why the Black Church, for instance, is not just a religious and a spiritual entity, but it also has provided education. It has also met social needs and social service needs and others, because again, it's it's an institution that is controlled by the community and somewhat insulated from the broader white world that's you know implementing this oppression. And so, in many ways, there's control and they can do what they want. And so they're using it to meet these broader needs. That ethos carries over to other institutions and definitely affected black entrepreneurs like Walker Hall.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yeah, it's it's absolutely a fascinating aspect of the story. Um and and certainly you know, one of the ways in which that that was um kind of epitomized by by Walker herself in uh commercial activity seems to have been that as well as the the business that she ran, she also had this huge network of of sales agents who were, I mean, almost operating as kind of franchisees, from what I could see. Um but she seemed unafraid to kind of use that as a part of her philanthropy as as well. And I just wondered, you know, did she do that primarily by sort of using those trying to kind of uh impose or or suggest her own philanthropic priorities onto those uh those women who were working for her? Or did she kind of uh support independently what they were interested in and kind of you know devolve power down to them?

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Yeah, so she began organizing her agents into what she called walker clubs, and and the goal actually started for for business reasons. Um she was concerned about uh there were there were competitors in the field who were taking her products, removing the labels and putting their own fake names on it. Um there was conflict between agents in some different cities regarding territories and other things. And so one, she saw it as a vehicle that would help bring the women together. Um, and and what we know about the role of such associations and building social capital kind of comes in here in terms of helping people to know each other in their cities, come together and support each other in achieving their business goals. But then also, again, because she knew who she was dealing with, these black women from around the country who were used to being parts of churches or women's clubs that were also, again, engaging in charity work, participating in the larger struggle for freedom. It became an opportunity to galvanize and organize those women, not only around those business concerns, but also in larger service to the race, as she would say. And so that's where she charges them and saying, you know, it's not enough to sell these products, but you also need to do something for this struggle for freedom. And so there are lots of, I was able to find at least 50 of these clubs around the country. And there are lots of reports from them in the archives of Madame Walker's papers in Indianapolis, Indiana, where um they're saying things like, you know, uh, we participated in this protest march with the NAACP against lynching, we donated furniture to black colleges, uh, we raised money for the NAACP. So they they take up this charge. Um, and and again, it's something that helps to bring them together around these important issues. So um I think she knew the power of women, uh, which is something that that is is being recognized by the field today in terms of the emphasis and role of women in philanthropy and understanding not only their giving preferences, but the the ways in which they influence giving decisions and the longstanding role of women in volunteering and activism is very important. And this is part of Black women's particular contribution. Their history of activism across American history is very important. And we saw that most recently in the recent presidential elections here, and it's ongoing with issues with police violence, um, education, healthcare. Um, black women continue to assert this activist um ethos or aspect of their character and culture that has been fundamental to their survival um across their American experience.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Absolutely. And on that particular question, I want to come back and ask you about sort of activism and civil rights in a moment. But just when you were talking there, I was thinking obviously we're we're talking about Madam Walker and um lots of the people that she worked with in the context where they are black people, African Americans during a Jim Crow era, but but she also was a woman, and that brings in another dimension of oppression. Uh actually thinking about her and the women that she she supported, to you know to what extent was their philanthropy or their activism focused on their experience um as black people within America at the time? And to what extent was it also uh sort of informed by their experience as as black women in particular? Or is it is it kind of impossible to disentangle those two things?

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Yeah, you know, and and this is where I'm I'm deeply indebted to the black women's historians who have been raising up this history for generations and pointing out the unique positionality and experience of black women, who, as you say, right, they they are not only dealing with racism from white men and women, they also are dealing with sexism from white men and from their own men, from black men within black communities and black institutions. And so there's a particular vulnerability there that shapes their historical experience. And and again, I was fortunate to be in conversation and community with many Black women's historians who helped me learn and understand these things on their own terms and try to grapple with them and bringing that into the analysis of Madame CJ Walker. And so, as I mentioned before, as a Black woman, it didn't matter that she was a millionaire, she could still be violated in the ways in which, in the many ways that that Jim Crow allowed Black people to be violated without any type of punishment or or protection. And so that is something that she very much carries with her. Um, that's something that all the women working for her carry with them. And it definitely shapes who they are and how they respond to the needs of their communities, the need to protect themselves, protect their families, um, and serve the race in this larger struggle for freedom. And so this is in particular where her relationship to black washerwomen becomes important. Um, that young, young Sarah Breedlove, who was orphaned at a young age, began working as a washerwoman around the age of 10 or 11. And it turns out that black washer women weren't just menial laborers at the bottom of the southern economy after the Civil War. They actually were pillars of their local communities, that they were ones who were breadwinners for their families, but also deeply invested in charity. Various historical studies from the era look at Black washer women as people who were donating to charities, uh, giving capital to help start Black businesses, uh, had their own set of mutual aid and giving strategies to support each other in doing the work uh uh that they were doing, and also organizing themselves into um uh washing societies. This is where the work of the great historian Tara Hunter at Princeton comes into play, who has shown how Black washer women organize themselves and had this great activist tradition that, you know, I connect Madam Walker to. This is also where the club women, uh, black club women come into play because of this unique experience. Um, this same time frame, the late 1890s, into the turn of the 20th century, black women are organizing themselves into clubs at a national level where they are articulating and presenting and defending their own woman, their own integrity. Um, they're trying to provide education and social services and other needs for their communities. They're building institutions, they're they're pressing for public policy change. And in many ways, they're they're they're they're they're trying to uplift their race and advocate for themselves in the process. And so all of these cultural and community factors, um, I argue influence Madame Walker and help to give shape to her own expression of what she sees other Black women doing and that becomes so critical and important to her story.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that um that's certainly something I want to come on to um in a in a moment is that question of where else you need to look for uh in sort of existing scholarship and and historical literature to find these stories that actually tell you the story of black philanthropy, because it's not there in a library currently under a heading that says black philanthropy necessarily. Um but just before I do that, I just wanted to come back to that question of of sort of activism and civil rights. So just to get a sense from you of kind of how important a focus for Madame CJ Walker herself was civil rights within her philanthropy. And I don't know whether sort of speaking of civil rights makes sense in the the historical context that we're talking about. It's sort of nascent civil rights and the birth of the NAACP and other organizations that you mentioned. But but was it something that she was very actively involved in?

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Yeah, and so you know, so historians like to talk about the long civil rights movement and that it's not confined to the 1950s and 1960s for the famous movement with Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King and the many other soldiers there, but actually something that goes back decades with kind of fits and starts and different ways in which people were trying to bring down the system of Jim Crow and and other things, you know, and so so Madame Walker is definitely a part of that long history because again, she is part of this generation that's you know, the first kind of freeborn generation after the end of slavery, and then building institutions and trying to say, how are we going to navigate this this new Jim Crow context and try to achieve freedom? And so it I think it's very important to understand her there. One of one of the most vocal ways in which she contributed to this was the anti-lynching movement, which was uh, you know, lynching became a practice during this time frame where black people were randomly killed by angry white mobs, uh, usually for based on lies or for no reason at all, and there was no justice for these victims, that that these these white vigilantes and white mobs would get away with it and nothing was being done. And so the uh you're right, NAACP, the Urban League, a lot of these institutions were created during Madam Walker's lifetime, and they take on this issue in trying to press for public policy change to protect Black people. And it's interesting here in the US, we just a few weeks ago, President Biden signed the Emmett Till Act, which is the first anti-lynching bill in American history here. This is how long it has taken to get it on the books. And Madam Walker was a part of this struggle uh to actually try to make that happen a hundred years ago, with President Woodrow Wilson, was not able to. So I think it is important to see her as a part of that generation that was trying to build up and pushing for solutions and trying any and everything it could to try to bring down the system and open up opportunities for everyone. Um, and and one of the unique things that I thought was interesting, I um there was a um in 1952, uh there was a memorial ceremony that I write about in the book at Madame Walker's gravesite. She died in 1919. But in 1952, a group of beauty culturists from her company and from the larger field assembled at her gravesite in New York at the Woodlawn Cemetery in the Bronx and wanted to honor her for her contributions. And one of the people who was present was Walter White, who was the national head of the NAACP. And according to the newspapers, during his comments during this memorial service, he said that the NAACP would not have survived the Great Depression were it not for the generosity of Madame CJ Walker. And so there's a direct connection there in terms of he, he, in his in his remarks, he extends some credit to Madame Walker and to that whole generation, really by extension, that had the faith to build this institution and to invest in it and to give to it in trying to achieve freedom. And even though they could not, they they they they pressed it forward so that subsequent generations could pick up the fight and keep going. And 1952 is a very important part in this in this story, important time in this story, because right then you're on the heels of what becomes the 1954 Brown versus Board of Education Supreme Court decision, which which brings down segregation in in schools, um, which is very important. It also is three years before what we think of as the formal civil rights uh movement beginning uh with the rise of figures like Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. And so so um in that way we have these things that directly connect her and her generation to um that that that that uh civil rights movement. And so I think it's very important to see her as a part of that that long civil rights movement and that long press for freedom that in many ways is is ongoing. As I said, we just got the anti-lyching bill a few weeks ago.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Yeah, which is startling when you when you think about it. Um and and in in terms of that that history, I was uh one thing I was really interested in from the book was she seems to uh there were the names of many other figures from the early 20th century who were involved in those sort of early stages of of civil rights. As you've already mentioned, people like W.B. Du Bois, um Marcus Garvey, and others, who all represent quite different viewpoints, I think, at that point in time about what uh the desirable way of pursuing the goal of of civil rights or black emancipation or of various different uh things was. Where should we understand Madame Walker as sort of fitting on that that spectrum from those who were maybe pushing for some form of kind of acceptance of the status quo or accommodationism and people who were were more radical?

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Yeah, this yeah, this is fascinating to see her interacting with these figures. And on the one sense, she's very pragmatic. She knows that these folks are movers or shakers, and and being uh and contributing to circles with them is important. Um, but also I think it also speaks to her evolving consciousness. Um, and so um, you know, she she very much she knows W.E.B. Du Bois, she knows Booker T. Washington, who comes to represent this accommodationist stance. Um she interacts with Marcus Garvey and actually donates money to his organization. And I think each one of those relationships speaks to um a part of her. So, on the one hand, with Booker T. Washington, she's a fan of his work at Tuskegee and his role in using vocational industrial education to address some needs in African American communities. And one of the things I argue in the book is that she actually does something a little bit different than Washington because Washington was urging African Americans to stay in the South, to stay in the agricultural economy. But Madame Walker is providing pathways into northern urban industrial economies through her beauty culture company and through her network of beauty culture schools where you could get a credential and begin working for her company or hang up your own shingle and work as an independent contractor. And so there's an interesting kind of um connection and tension between her and Booker T. Washington, where she takes that and uses that form of education to build a workforce and to create opportunities for African Americans to move north and to build an economic base uh for themselves and their families and by extension larger community. We also know she's interacting with Du Bois, and certainly a big supporter of the NAACP, who's one of he's one of the early thinkers and founders there, um, and and contributing to the anti-lynching movement and also thinking uh collectively about again, what are the next steps for freedom. Her her connection to Marcus Garvey is interesting because during the later part of her her her life, she begins to develop this pan-Africanist sensibility where she's thinking about, hey, this oppression that we're experiencing here in the US is not unique. Um there are black people in other places that are also experiencing this kind of oppression under colonial rule. And so, what does it mean to reach out and to connect across, you know, across waters and to understand this as a more of a global connected fight and press for liberation rather rather than only an American one? And so she travels to Cuba and and she's she's very much involved. She starts, helps to start an organization called the International League of Darker Peoples, which is very much this idea of bringing together Black people around the globe to press for freedom collectively. Um so I think each one of those interactions and relationships reflect some aspect of her evolving consciousness across her lifetime.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that international aspect to it where there's a shared sense of identity across black people, across multiple geographies at the time, is an absolutely fascinating avenue that I would love to hear more about. Um I just I'm aware that we're in danger of sort of you know, I've got lots of questions left and uh I'm gonna run out of time. But um there's just a couple I really want to get in because I want to leave some time just to to talk more about the the actual sort of uh question of the the history and historiography of black philanthropy. But the the one thing I wanted to add first was that one cool person we haven't really talked about so far in the conversation that I thought was fascinating um was Freeman B. Ransom, um who is uh Walker's business manager, but also to some extent her sort of um philanthropic advisor or somebody involved in helping her make those decisions. And I I personally am fascinated by the role of these often sort of hidden figures that you actually tend to find are there alongside these big philanthropic names of the past. Um what sort of role did did Freeman play? And do we do we need to sort of understand Madame Walker's philanthropy by also understanding the role that he was playing in kind of shaping the decisions that she took?

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Absolutely. Uh Freeman Brie Ransom's relationship with Madame Walker is very important for understanding her as a philanthropist, as an entrepreneur, and as someone who, you know, you know, becomes this kind of historical figure that resonates today. Um so so just a little, so he was uh from Mississippi and they met when she visited Indianapolis um in the early 1900s, and and he studied law at Columbia. And so, because of his legal background, um, she uh uses him and another black attorney in the city of Indianapolis, Robert Brokenburgh, to set up the early paperwork for her company when she she moves to Indianapolis in 1910 to build the formal headquarters for her company. And this is where the relationship starts. And and Ransom goes on to become a general manager for her. And it is in that role at the company that he takes on what I argue is this kind of philanthropoid uh role, because he's not only managing the details of HR and hiring and firing people and managing the supply line and the logistics for the products, but he also is in deep conversation with her about her money, about her resources, about charitable donations she's making, about these other relationships with businesses and schools that are impactful on her philanthropy. And it kind of started with there was a local school teacher in the city of Indianapolis who wrote to him and said that she was doing some kind of project and wanted to know more about Madame Walker's philanthropy. And so he writes this three-page letter where he he details and outlines an array of gifts that she had given over a several year period. And so that gave me a way of conceptualizing her philanthropy through his eyes as her close advisor. And and there's so much correspondence between them in the archive where you see this evolving relationship where they truly do become not only just kind of boss and employee, but but but dear friend, uh almost family-like. Their families are very close. Um, they they they're they're they're you know kind of connected to each other's children in very important ways. And and but also he's advising. Her on her giving. He's he's he sets up a process for intaking the various solicitations that come her way. He's managing the output of charitable uh uh donations to organizations, he is managing her network of schools that becomes a part of her important part of her philanthropy, I argue. Um, and and so he also is the person who crafts her will, where she kind of lays out her legacy and how she wants to be remembered and redistributes her resources. So he's he's a vital partner for understanding her. And in interviews after she died, he tells some stories about how they met and how he it was his job to give form and function to you know her as a great visionary and the big ideas that she had. And so, so he very much saw himself in that way. He also saw himself as a protector of Madame Walker and her legacy. And so he's he's trying to make sure that the company will sustain itself. He's very concerned about her consumption, uh, is trying to kind of rein in her spending so that she will have more to do more with. So they just have a very versatile and complex relationship that um has has a very loving element to it. It certainly is very professional and just Harry has all these different pieces that that that that lend itself to really seeing her through his eyes and the and the role that he was playing inside the company and in her life and her family. And the interesting thing too is that relationship continues to this day. Uh Ransom's heirs and Walker's heirs have grown up together in the city of Indianapolis and to this day are are dear friends and very close. And so it's it's in many ways, it's poetic and beautiful that that relationship still exists and is still affecting many different arenas of society.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Yeah, how fascinating. I hadn't I had wasn't aware of that, but that's uh that's a lovely kind of added touch to the story. Um and it just I I just want to come to this question of the the idea of the the history of of black philanthropy as as a field, because it's uh it's something that comes through clearly in the book, but also it's something you've written about in a number of articles and papers elsewhere that I thought were really interesting. Um about the kind of the particular challenges that it that it brings trying to um uh develop that as a field. I guess the the first question, the starting point is I mean, d from your point of view, do you think we we should be uh thinking in terms of a distinct field or practice of of black philanthropy? And and if so, does that require uh amending or evolving our definitions of philanthropy to encompass other activities that might get missed out if we if we sort of use the paradigms that that we traditionally have thinking about the kind of white models of doing things?

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Yes, I do. In fact, I think of my own research agenda as being focused on two big questions, what counts as philanthropy and who counts as a philanthropist. And so I believe the African-American tradition, and by extension, other communities of color give us um important ways of viewing those questions and pursuing them. Because you're right, the the current sources that we rely upon to study philanthropy don't speak to these traditions. Um, the the traditional uh methodologies and ways that we we we conceptualize and then go attempt to measure and understand this phenomenon out in the world also tend to overlook um communities of color. And so this is where um part of I mentioned before the important role of Black women's historians in my work and being in conversation and community with them. I also add to that Africana studies, um, you know, that these um fields um know how to study Black peoples around the world wherever they are, and and have raised to the core issues of challenging issues with archives, that they're not there are not always archives, or you have to be careful about whose perspective is in the archives, particularly when it comes to black people. Is it some external groups um view of it? As in the case of with you go to the Rockefeller archives and you see all the money that Rockefeller was giving to Black communities, if you only look through that lens, well, you're looking at those communities through Rockefeller's eyes. You have to go into those communities, find their archives, their ways of being, their responses, their reactions, in order to really fully understand what the relationship was like and what was going on. Because it was very common for uh Black leaders of nonprofit organizations to tell Rockefeller and Carnegie and others what they wanted to hear so they could draw down the money and pursue their own agendas. So, so this is where this view of seeing Black people as recipients of other people's philanthropy comes into play rather than as agents of their own philanthropic traditions. And so my work is very much about trying to build bridges and connections with these other fields that specialize in studying people of color and bringing forward their methodologies, their approaches, and integrating them with the kinds of questions and challenges we face in philanthropic studies, because I think we have a lot to learn from them. And indeed, my book wouldn't have been possible without being able to engage and to build some of those bridges. And also in the process, I think that those fields have something to gain by thinking about philanthropy a little bit more broadly in the way that we do in philanthropic studies. Um, so I think this is part of kind of the next wave of my work is strengthening those connections, doing more collaborative work with scholars from those fields and bringing those methodologies together so that we can really see, in this case, African-American philanthropy on its own terms, how it has evolved historically as a phenomenon, as a culture, and how it operates. Because again, the prevailing methodologies just don't see it. And I think this larger moment of the pandemic has called into questions of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so now a lot of people are asking big questions about our data sources and where we go and how we use them. And so there definitely are efforts to try to change those things. And I think those are important. At the same time, I think it's important to study these communities on their own terms. And so this is where I look to it and build connections with. And I myself have an appointment, a joint appointment with Africana Studies. And so I think those types of intellectual collaborations are very important for really understanding this um uh this phenomenon and again doing it so on its own terms instead of from this external lenses, which is how communities of color have been historically studied by our field.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Absolutely. And I think that question of of what the archives do or or don't tell us and and who was recording what are fascinating, not only in their own right as as uh for what they can tell you about the history, but I think there's something really uh an important lesson for the present in terms of making us think about well, whose voices might be getting missed out now as well. Um I think you know it's a hugely kind of important work. Um I'm aware that I'm I'm gonna take up all too much of your time and I'm gonna to let you go in a moment. I guess the the final question I just wanted to throw in, given given that, and I think I'm really excited to see where all your work and research goes next. Do you have any sense at the moment of who might be sort of other key figures in the history of of black philanthropy or you know, key stories, if not figures? Because I'm not sure we need to be thinking in the same sort of model of you know who are the big philanthropists. Um, but what are the stories that you're kind of aware of that you've thought, oh, I'd really like to dig into that more, or that maybe should be better known?

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Yeah, you know, there's there's there's there's many. Um, I, you know, came across the work of an uh an Irish historian who who looked at and mentioned that um in 1847, um a group of enslaved black people in Richmond, Virginia, through their church, donated money to Ireland for the potato famine, which is fascinating to think about enslaved people sending resources overseas to help Europeans. Um, there's things like that that I think are important. I think that they're looking at the major social movements of America through a philanthropic lens gives us a way of understanding the civil rights movement as not just a political movement, but uh, but a philanthropic movement in terms of the ways in which uh people uh you know came together, supported protesters in their homes while they marched from city to city, fed them, transported them during boycotts so they could stay off buses. Um, uh people like A. G. Gaston, who was a black um businessman in Alabama, who made his hotels available uh to Martin Luther King and others as they traveled from city to city and things like that. So I think there's there's all these kinds of things that um uh you know, not to mention that the philanthropists who would bail Martin Luther King and others out of jail when they were being arrested, that those dollars had to come from somewhere. Um and when you think about today the modern-day bail movement and and and police reform movements, right, there's this long-standing tradition of dealing with criminal justice in black philanthropy. Madame Walker um supported um uh, you know, uh some legal cases uh to get uh some black people out of jail. Uh so I just there's there's there's there's a lot of of threads here that I think are important to bring together and understand. And that again bring together the money, they bring together time. I think the the grand tradition of activism in this tradition is part of that, thinking about the idea of using one's voice as a gift, as it were, and as a tool to speak truth to power, to to argue and advocate for public policy change. And so when you you look at that approach, then you've got a whole history of Black religious leaders uh through their oratory who who who who offer alternative uh messages about America and how to press for freedom and drawing inspiration from different faith traditions to encourage their congregations to participate in these movements. So there's there's many different directions. And then that's before you even get to the contemporary landscape, which now today includes black giving circles, black family foundations. Um, you know, so so there's there's there are many different aspects to this history that I think are very fascinating. It's important to kind of to to not only collect them, but to see and understand how they have evolved and developed on their own terms and what they contribute to the larger landscape and understanding of philanthropy as a as a as a common collective human heritage rather than something that only belongs to wealthy white elites.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Absolutely. I think it sounds like there's a fascinating research agenda, or to be on a series of research agendas uh in there. Um before I let you go, I just want to say, you know, uh, do you have anything coming up that you'd particularly like to plug or what what's coming up in terms of uh you know next uh steps in terms of promoting the book?

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Yeah, um well I'm I'm very very honored and excited to have recently won the Dan David Prize in History. And so I'm preparing to travel to Israel to receive that award along with eight other historians from around the world who are also being recognized. Um that's an exciting moment in promoting this book and this research agenda of validating uh black philanthropy as an important field of inquiry. Um so that that's very special. And I'm also very much looking forward to again extending um this work of constructing a history of African-American philanthropy and again understanding how it has evolved on its own terms and not starting with the existing historiography on philanthropy in America, which again privileges um uh wealthy white elites, but really looking at um African American history uh and what are the factors and actors and behaviors and approaches that have evolved from pre-colonial Western Africa. Remember that this is something that um starts with uh some basic ways of giving, caring, and sharing that enslaved black people brought with them from Western Africa through the Middle Passage onto those southern plantations and into uh you know, uh into the American fabric. And so seeing and understanding it from that vantage point gives it a whole different meaning, a whole different connection, because then we get to see and understand it as something that's that's larger than the kind of the absurdity of the American experience for Black people, uh, but something that's deeply rooted in these other traditions. And the fact that these migrations continue, this is where we get to see African-American philanthropy as a part of a larger Black philanthropy, a diasporic philanthropy, that as Black people move around the world, they bring these traditions with them. So it wasn't just a one-time transplant that happened during the Middle Passage, it's something that continues as African and Black migrants continue to enter into the United States and become a part of local communities, bringing with their traditions of collective giving and and mutual aid. Uh that that adds another layer and texture to the practice of philanthropy in these communities in the 21st century. Um, and so I think uh making those kinds of connections and understanding it through that lens, that's where my work is headed next. I'm very excited about it.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

Absolutely. I think we're all excited to read it as well when it when it happens. So uh it just remains to say thanks ever so much, Tyrone, for finding the time to come on the podcast. It's been absolutely fascinating getting the chance to talk to you. And hopefully at some point uh, you know, in a year or two's time, we might find a chance to catch up after the next book.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It's been really fun.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Okay, great. Well, my thanks again to Tyrone for coming on the podcast. Um absolutely fascinating conversation, I thought. Um really great to have a chance to talk to him. Uh I'll put links in the show notes to places where you can find the book, which I thoroughly recommend you get hold of a copy of and read. Uh, and also links to some other articles that Tyrone's written that are relevant and some other episodes of this uh podcast and other things that I've written that you might be interested in. Uh if you're interested more broadly in issues around philanthropy and civil society, uh do follow me on Twitter at Rodri underscore Davis, uh Rodery underscore H underscore Davis, sorry, uh or at philiteracy uh if you're interested in stuff that's more about history or the theory of philanthropy. Um if you want to find back issues of this podcast, you can find them at philanthropisms.com, or you can also find an email address so you can get a hold of us if you've got ideas for topics I could cover or people I could talk to on the podcast. Uh other than that, just the usual, like, subscribe, do tell all your friends about it, recommend it to people if you think they'll be interested, and I'll see you next time. Bye.