SPEAKER_00 0:12

You're listening to the Flux Podcast with Roger Davis. Hello, you're listening to the Philanthropisms Podcast. This is the podcast where we try to put philanthropy in context. I'm your host, as ever, Rodri Davis, and this week we have a conversation, and it's with Mihila Georgiou. Now, Mihhaila is a freelancer and researcher and an expert on philanthropy, particularly community philanthropy, and she works on a range of different things, including as an international consultant for the funding network around giving circles, and also with the European Community Foundation initiative. And she also was originally from Romania, so has a fascinating perspective on that. So I had a really interesting conversation with Mihhaila about the context for civil society and philanthropy in Romania and sort of more broadly in Central and Eastern Europe, and kind of how that had developed following the fall of communism over there, and sort of the context where you had to develop much of the infrastructure for civil society and philanthropy from scratch and how that had happened, and what it meant that the landscape for philanthropy and civil society looked like in some of those countries now. We talked about thinking about philanthropy at a European level and some of the conversations going on there and Mihela's experience of sort of bringing a perspective of from Central and Eastern European philanthropy to some of those discussions, which is a perspective that has probably not been as large a part of the conversation at times in the past as it could have been. We also sort of talked about the importance of philanthropy infrastructure and the role it plays at a European level and also at a local level, and whether there was a particular focus at the moment following the pandemic on the need to support that infrastructure and make it sustainable over the longer term. We talked about the particular role of community foundations and the fact that they are enormously diverse, both within countries, but certainly when you're looking at a European level and whether that made it a challenge to position them as a kind of coherent movement and to get a sense of shared identity. We also talked about whether community foundations sometimes struggle to be part of the wider conversation about foundation philanthropy. We also had a really interesting chat about some of the kind of critiques and criticisms and discussion of philanthropy that has been happening over the last few years and whether often that feels too much driven by the perspective of the US and the UK and actually feels less relevant in other contexts across Europe and elsewhere. So without further ado, let's go into the conversation. I hope you enjoy it. I certainly had a fascinating time chatting to Mihaila. And I'll be back at the end with a little bit of housekeeping and some information about where you can find out more. Okay, great. So I'm here with uh Mihaila Giorgio. Hi, Mihaila. Hi, Roger. It's great to have you on the podcast. Um, hoping to have a really fascinating conversation about all sorts of things to do with philanthropy in Europe, community philanthropy, and particularly, you know, the perspective that you've got on philanthropy in Central and Eastern Europe, which is something I know you know a lot about and something I know nothing about. So I'm fascinated to hear more about that. Um but maybe the best place to start is if you just kind of introduce yourself and say a bit about what it is that you do and what sort of brings you to issues around philanthropy.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Yeah, that's great. And I'm sure you say you don't know things about it, but uh we're gonna have a nice conversation. We're gonna have a nice conversation because you understand things, so it's easier to have that conversation. Um, so I'm Romanian, we should start with that, and I guess that's where my uh Eastern, eastern, central, eastern European experience comes from. I worked in Romania uh with the National Association for Um Community Relations, which is um an infrastructure body, and they were developing community foundations in Romania as a way to develop local and community philanthropy from the bottom up. And I worked there for six years, uh and it was fascinating. I think still one of the most interesting things I've ever done, supporting development of community foundations in a way that the field started from nothing. And afterwards I moved to the Netherlands and I started working with ECFI, which is their European Community Foundation initiative. And I'm currently um doing peer learning, mapping, and research of the field in in Europe. And also as a freelancer, I part-time work with the funding network, UK, Giving Circles, and I support uh their international work.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Great. I mean, absolutely. I think in similar to me, you wear lots of different hats, which I think always gives you sort of interesting perspectives and hopefully you know the ability to sort of join the dots between them. Um if if it's possible, I'd like to sort of start from the specific um uh context of sort of philanthropy in Romania and in Central Eastern Europe, and then kind of zoom out from there. Um just because it's you know it's fascinating, and I suspect something that many of the people listening, you know, the same as me, don't really know a lot about. Uh my perception as an outsider is that that Romania and some of the other the states sort of around it, the general context for sort of civil society and philanthropy is one in which for a long time the state almost kind of crowded out all of that sort of activity. And it's only really in the relatively recent past, in the last sort of 30 years or so, that there has been that space. And so it's been a case of sort of having to create a lot of things from scratch. I mean, is is that an accurate picture and and does that sort of reflect your experience of working in it?

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah, absolutely. I think you you you know you've uh made a good introduction to it, but obviously there's nuances, and luckily this podcast is about context and nuances. So yeah, it comes from you know our political past of communism and 50 years of um sort of crushing all individual initiative and all um option to come together as people, as citizens. Um, and after the fall of communism with support first from the US with their um uh international development funding, USAID, they started supporting democracy and associations and NGOs and civil society. Afterwards, we joined the EU in 2007, and then this USAID funding stopped, and that's the case actually now in other countries like Georgia or the Balkans, or even Turkey, I think, if I'm not mistaken. Um, so in a way, the association I worked in Romania saw this coming because they were a group of people who had worked through USAID programs, and they realized that you know there's a lot of dependency that was created in the sector because of these funds, and it's normal in a way. So the the idea was to kind of support uh a more sustainable development and start working at grassroots level, also with educating companies on how to give, on educating individuals, and also educating civil society organizations on how to fundraise from local resources, not just international development?

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yeah, absolutely. And and it feels as though you know that that switch from the initial period when it tends to be funding coming in from the outside big foundations and sort of aid and development agencies to one where it's more sustainable based on local resources, is one that that that you see in in a number of other places. What what kind of makeup of civil society and philanthropy has that has that sort of left Romania with and and in the region more widely? I mean, is it's is it primarily corporate philanthropy? Because I know that tends to be quite an early player often in these markets, or is is there quite a growth in individual philanthropy as well?

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Yeah, good question. Uh and uh like a very long answer. In a way, we we we could go through all the countries and it'd be different.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Um I think both, and what I liked in Romania was that there was investment in a way on all these um sectors, so there was parallel work on educating companies on how to get involved in the community, but also individuals and also strengthening organizations. And I think that that was maybe a success in Romania, in other countries as well, but maybe not as much in a way. Obviously, things influence your donors, national partners, your governments, your culture, and so on. Um, if we're to look at differences and similarities, we we share this lack of trust, which sounds easy, but in practice, um, even if you have a, for example, a very flexible donor like the Mod Foundation, you then work with organizations that aren't used to sort of trust brand making, and you know they will require more reports and more control from their grantees on the ground. So I think it's it's a long process to get to where you want to be. It takes 20, 30, 50 years.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Absolutely. And and in terms of sort of thinking about non-institutional philanthropy, is is there much of a market at the moment for sort of high net worth giving, either kind of within Romania or from diaspora communities? Is is that a part of of you know the of the environment?

SPEAKER_02 10:28

Yes, I mean it depends on what you're comparing it with. So if you're comparing it with US and UK, there's very little. If you're comparing it with the region, there's there's quite a lot. Um, obviously, we're not a country where there's accumulated wealth because communism took everything from everyone. Um, so people also, I don't want to say they're hoarding uh fortunes, but that's what's happening because when you're you're in a context where resources were scarce, you first want to have resources, and maybe then you want to give them away. Um, so that's sort of the underlying uh situation. Now we were really lucky to be exposed to different mechanisms of giving, and I'm gonna mention giving circles, um, where we realized okay, we won't have high net worth individuals right away, but we have to start somewhere. And maybe we won't start with people in their 50s and 60s because they don't have wealth, but we can start with people in their 30s who are um professionals working in IT or creative industries, and they should start giving small in a way. Everyday giving is now the phrase that's that's being coined for for um giving small. And hopefully those people in 20, 30 years will end up being high net worth individuals. Now, I'm not saying there aren't any high net worth individuals giving, uh, but it but it's it's quite little compared to to US and uh UK.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah, it's it's really fascinating because there's so much um there's a lot of focus, I mean, particularly in the US at the moment, it feels like, but also in the UK and and other places on this whole question of everyday giving, and actually quite a lot of big money philanthropy seems to be putting resources into trying to grow you know the culture of everyday giving. And and actually I wonder whether, I mean, do you feel as though places like Romania that have actually had to kind of build from the the bottom up when it comes to philanthropy in recent memory, actually have a lot to teach some of these other contexts about how to do it? And and you know, are we are those of us in the UK and the US quite bad at listening to people from other contexts sometimes?

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Tough question in a way that it's both. So I think again, because we were in a context where resources were scarce, we had to innovate and we did really good at it, but we did good at it because of the context. So I don't want us to be sort of praised that you know we were so progressive and so on, and it's all about empowering and from the bottom up, in a way we couldn't have endowments for community foundations, so you had to have flow-through funds. And yes, by peer learning and and talking and and and bringing all these perspectives, you can learn from each other, but you know, context matters, and and you you shouldn't just take something and say, ah, look, um you know, the global south is doing this remarkable thing, and we should all follow. Well, because that's the context there, and and you know, maybe in 50 years they'll end up having the wealth that there was in the north, and they'll have to use different methods. So I think that's a constant learning from each other without getting stuck on um on a situation, so sort of allowing change and allowing different perspectives without pointing fingers of you know who did this and who did that, and um yeah, just I I think we will get to to the point where um US and UK was in in in 50 years, maybe. And uh I think new methods will be required then.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

And and there won't be the methods that we have now that seem innovative in the global north, in a way.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah, I know it's a it's a good point because it's easy, again, as you say, to sort of slightly romanticize it, and when actually innovation is happening because there's no choice, it's a necessity. Um I'm sure people in Romania and other countries would have loved to just to have access to large endowments and not to have to have done that. So um, no, it's a fair point, but I still, you know, it still feels as though being more open to understanding what's happened in other contexts whilst being aware that that context does matter and you can't just take things from one place and and transplant them to another, you know, that it feels like there should be be more of that. Um I just wanted to ask as well, in in terms of um, you know, we we sort of talked there about the the growth of civil society and philanthropy in in sort of Central Eastern Europe in places where, for a long period, you know, because of of communism and the size of the state, there wasn't space for it. What what's the attitude of the government in Romania or in in some other countries at the moment towards civil society and the idea of philanthropy? I mean, they are they are they keen on it or are they quite cautious or are they sort of actively opposed?

SPEAKER_02 15:16

You know, uh it would have to go into uh long political discussions, and I think it depends on depends on who's sort of in power. I think in uh there was a lot of support at some point, and we didn't have legislation on it, and then we had legislation to support it, but in a way that legislation got stuck to 20 years ago, and I think for the field to move ahead, we would need new legislation on it. And also once civil society started to be a really strong provider of social services as well, and um have really strong watchdog organizations and you know, encouraging democracy and participation and competing with local governments by showing that you know if we can be professional and we can do these things that you know you aren't, and you are taking the bulk of the people's money in a way through taxes. Um they they did take a step back, and some, for example, some mayors decided it's good to uh collaborate with civil society because it looks good that we're progressive, and some have uh taken a step back and and criticized them. And and there was a law at some point to impose more um financial burdens and to give lists of donations and so on. So that there are always initiatives to to stifle development of civil society, and I think countries in the region learn from each other, so we you know we have Hungary and Poland and so on. So whenever we have a bit more right-wing um politicians having having power, those conversations come up. And um, yeah, we you know we have to stay vigilant and no, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

And it and from what you're saying there, I mean, one of the things that that feels important is is having those connections between the different country contexts. And it certainly seems, you know, to me, being kind of involved a bit in in the sort of the infrastructure for philanthropy in Europe, that's one of the things that people find hugely valuable is that there are the specifics of individual country contexts, but by being able to talk at a European level or a sort of regional level within Europe, people can share experiences and kind of have infrastructure that benefits everyone. I mean, I I know you've been sort of involved quite a lot in in some of that infrastructure for for philanthropy within Europe. How have I mean, how's that experience been for you? Have you found it beneficial in the work that you've you've done more sort of specifically in Central and Eastern Europe? And have you found that you've had to kind of make effort to bring that particular perspective to the European level?

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Yes. Um yeah, so I think all the time in the past 10 years, uh we've we've benefited a lot from sharing of experiences, both within the region, because you feel you're not alone. So if it's just you know one Romanian or one Bulgarian or one Serbian or one Hungarian in this European forums where you have strong representation of you know Germans, uh you know, UK, Italian, France, Netherlands, then it's just one perspective and you feel like uh maybe you know you don't belong there. But I think recently through um Tex, which is the Philanthropy, European Networks of Europe, uh we've we've really come together from from sort of the entirety of Europe. And I do feel that more and more we we have a seat at the table, and that there's sort of a balance of power in terms of knowledge and in terms of openness to our perspective and the innovations we do in in this part of Europe, uh, and learning from each other because it used to be only one way, we would learn from the West, and now it there's there's sort of real openness and uh from from also learning from the east and and and finding out about our perspectives and and um sort of sharing power.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Yeah, absolutely. And I no, I mean it certainly is say it kind of the the discussions and what's going on around philanthropy at a European level at the moment seem seems to me absolutely fascinating. There's a huge amount of energy, and some of the most interesting um you know debate and work being done around philanthropy is being done at that European level. And and as somebody from the UK, where we've obviously you know taken a decision not to be part of that politically anymore, you know, not a decision I uh agree with personally, it feels as though actually philanthropy and being part of Europe through philanthropy is is one way that we can sort of stay connected and see ourselves as uh as European. So, you know, it has has benefit as well, I think, from uh as somebody from from the UK, certainly. Um and yeah, I one of the the things I wanted to ask about as well is you know, you you talked there about the value of um or how the value that you'd found from being part of of PECS as a sort of part of the philanthropy infrastructure in Europe. Um what what's your sort of perception of the value of infrastructure at that European level more broadly? Um, and and I sort of say that because it feels as though certainly during the pandemic, we've come to rely on infrastructure very heavily and we've realized how important it is, yet we're also aware in many places that it's much weaker, certainly the infrastructure for philanthropy than we would like it to be. Um, do you do you think there's a sort of particular awareness at the moment of the need for infrastructure and the need to fund it?

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Absolutely. I think there's there's more uh awareness of it. We'll see if funding follows.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

And I think it's also not not something very easy to to figure out. I mean, sometimes, yes, you know something, but you still don't know how you're gonna uh you know tackle it or how you're gonna fund it and so on. And I think it's a very dynamic field. So, in a way, any small change can can lead it's like a big big input of puzzle, and you put one piece or the other, and maybe it's a completely different outcome. So, in a way, maybe we should take a bit of time and think about you know more of what we want and a bit settle this year, or maybe the next two years, and see what's here to stay from the pandemic and how we want to change things. I think there's lots of energy that you know we're gonna build back better and so on. And it's true, it's just I don't think we yet know exactly how we're gonna build back better. Um also, I can to me, community foundations are in a way local infrastructure organizations. And uh I uh I see them as uh as especially in in eastern and central eastern contexts where there isn't so much infrastructure, and I think they can be that uh which is really needed at local level. And because there aren't resources sometimes, and there aren't uh other actors, uh community foundations have to have to take on many roles, and that's why in Europe there's such a diversity of them as opposed to the US, maybe or UK. Um, because sometimes they have to do community development and they have to organize volunteers and they have to teach people how to organize to then be able to fund them through groundmaking. Um, so maybe in 20 years they they'll they'll they'll get to a different model, but at this moment, this is really important for them to be uh local infrastructures.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Yeah, I wanted to ask about the the sort of specific perspective on community foundations, because it I mean it always strikes me that they even in the US and UK context, they can perform multiple different functions, and it can be local grant makers, they can be sort of community champions, they can be donor services organizations, or they can be you know all of those things and more. But but in the context when you're talking at the European level across all of these different countries with their varied histories and cultures of giving, obviously they're probably going to be even more diverse range of roles. But as somebody who sort of works, you know, has worked and does work within the field of community foundations, but also is has a foot in sort of multiple different countries and at the European level. Do you do you find it a challenge to kind of get people to think of community foundations as a coherent movement or as one coherent thing, given that there is such diversity within within the whole range of them?

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Yes, it's my my number one challenge every day. There's not a there's not a day that goes by where we don't have these discussions in in our team at ICN with with other partners. And but it's uh that's what I love about my job, and and I in a way I think it'd be very boring otherwise. But maybe that's my my sort of research perspective. And and if you take a step back and you just look at things and it's so interesting, but when you actually do the work, it's a bit challenging, especially in terms of peer learning, because there are over uh 900 community foundations in in Europe in 23 countries, and uh the level of uh how professional the staff is differs. Some are paid, some are completely volunteer, some have been set up you know 20, 30 years ago, some are very new, some have younger staff, some have senior stuff. So whenever I have to organize an event of you know learning and sharing of experiences, I always think of you know trying to cater to all of these needs, and sometimes that's not possible. So it's a lot of um uh management of expectations and and understanding that it's not we're we're we don't have experts, we're just creating a safe space for reflection on our practice and sharing of that. So um uh that that's the challenge, but I think also that's where the the value comes from. And um we don't have a strict definition of what a community foundation is, um, but we do talk about principles and so on. And uh we're actually now embarking on mapping of the field and having a report on on what's the state of the field of community foundations and also asking people in each country if they have a definition of it and what's their definition, what's what are their standards. So we're trying to be inclusive, but also not um um inclusive of everything. So we need some some sort of common ground, um, and and that that helps us because there's diversity.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, and you know, you say there's there's no uh strict definition of community foundation, I suppose civil society is one of those places where there's very few strict definitions of of anything. I mean, I I still don't really know what philanthropy means, and I've been working on it for quite a while. Um, but I was wondering as well, you know, actually the challenges of um trying to get coherence within the field of community foundations themselves. Uh I mean, one of the things that always interests me as well is obviously community foundations are also foundations, yet often it feels as though they don't get involved in the discussions about foundation philanthropy in the same way. Do you find is that also a challenge, sort of speaking from the perspective of community foundations and getting that that heard within the wider discussions about foundation philanthropy?

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's that's part of the reason if they're more sort of developing civil society, they're sometimes perceived as more parts of civil society if there isn't a strong foundation sector. Uh and if there's a very strong foundation sector, then they're not seen because they're not doing such big work as big foundations. So if you want to look at the opposite spectrum of Europe, you know, maybe UK and Russia, let's say, or you know, West East, maybe you have a very developed foundation sector where community foundations are developed in UK, but maybe they're not so involved in the conversation about foundations because there are other bigger foundations doing the work. While in other parts, maybe you don't have foundation of a strong foundation sector like in in Eastern Europe. Uh, so community foundations are more part of civil society because civil society as a whole is more developed, so they're more part of those conversations and bringing the perspective of you know philanthropy and giving and cultures of giving and what it means to be a foundation. So, in a way that I would say in in Central and Eastern Europe, in some countries, community foundations are paving the way for a foundation sector.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I the other thing that I was I was interested in asking um you about as well is you know, you said you mentioned that you do work um uh specifically around giving circles, which I think is an area that lots of people seem very interested in, again, because it feels almost like a kind of a point that connects some of the discussion around everyday philanthropy and the discussion, you know, more about kind of institutional philanthropy, because it's it's sort of somewhere in the middle. It's a little bit of structure, but but still pretty kind of organic. Um, what you know, what have you seen in terms of the growth of giving circles in the various places that you've been involved in in Europe? And do you think there's you know kind of particular interest in in the strength of that model at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Yes, I think in this March, yeah, in a month, uh we'll be celebrating 10 years of of the first giving circle in in the region in Bulgaria and Romania. So it's uh quite an interesting uh uh decade. For us, giving circles were sort of like a blessing because they came with this um concrete tool of how to engage donors and how to find them and how to have conversations with them. And um the funding network was really instrumental in giving us their model that they piloted in UK. So there wasn't a lot of, we could just sort of take it and adapt it. We didn't have to work a lot on it, but in a way it was flexible enough that they didn't, you know, want us to implement as they did it in in UK. So it was flexible and we could adapt it, but it was in a way it was really easy for um community foundation staff and other organizations to um to see how giving circle is done and and and to actually develop it. And it it started with with massive growth and success in Central and Eastern Europe. I would say now it has plateaued in some countries, but it has taken out, uh it has uh rise, has rose in other in other countries in, for example, South America. Um and yeah, TFN works in 25 countries. But I think what Giving Circles have done, sort of they've paved the way for philanthropy advising, which I would say is in a context that's very professional. Uh, and what giving circles did in our context was philanthropy education, because you you got a chance to discuss with donors uh about you know why are we funding this project and not the other one, and um because it's uh it's it's a live event, and and three or four organizations pitch their ideas and you can ask questions and then you give. So that's in a nutshell what the model is about. And it was a nice event, people could network because it's really important in our region to me to have a glass of wine, but also to to have you know good discussions about you know why are we here, what are our values, what are we looking for? Is this charity? Is this philanthropy? What's the difference? Um, you know, supporting an organ organization that uh uh gathers stray cats and asking ourselves, okay, will this solve the problem or not? And and and looking at the whole spectrum of of uh change in a field. So I think that this education was really important. Uh uh, and we got this from uh from giving circles and having this event.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

It's fascinating. I think that model is such an interesting blend of thinking and doing. And I think, you know, I I like to talk about things to do with philanthropy in very abstract ways, and I'm happy, but I'm aware that for a lot of people it doesn't, it's difficult for it to make sense unless you're actually doing it at the same time. And a giving circle allows you to do both. Um I wondered, yeah, I wondered as well actually, with any of those giving circles, is is any of it driven by a sort of sense of shared identity on the part of the people forming the circles? Because I know in some places there's a very strong trend towards giving circles among particular kind of marginalized groups or or kind of um uh communities that have a shared identity, whether they're sort of diaspora communities or others, and they might be, you know, around that shared identity, focusing on a particular range of causes. Is there any of that that you've seen in the work you're doing as well?

SPEAKER_02 32:31

I think not so much in our region. And I think it's a kind of fake it till you make it situation. Um, because you just have to get the practice and then you have to reflect on it and see, you know, we've done this for 10 years. Uh should we continue like this, or what else is it that we can do? And I think now it's a good moment to start a conversation about you know shared values and and more of community of practice or community of donors, and it can be, you know, women's giving circle. I'm not saying there aren't, I'm just saying as a trend, it's not it's not as strong in in our region yet, but I think that's where we're heading.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Um and that that made me think actually that you know you were talking there about one of the the benefits being you can kind of discuss with with donors, you know, why you're not giving to this organization as opposed to that one and what the the different causes are. Uh, you know, both with giving circles, but also kind of more broadly in terms of the landscape of philanthropy in in um in Romania and and perhaps you know more broadly in Central and Eastern Europe, you know, what what do you tend, you know, what does that look like in terms of where the money's going? You know, is is most of it going to domestic organizations? Is any of it crossing borders? Are there particular causes that people often focus on?

SPEAKER_02 33:48

So, yes, if we're talking about giving circles and community foundations, community philanthropy, yes, we do put a lot of focus on local, you know, your your neighborhood. I think that's that's what we're missing in a way to to have better neighborhoods in our in our countries, in this part of Europe. Um, I think traditionally a lot of the money goes to education and you know, social causes, that's because those are easy in a way to understand on a you know like entry level. Um, but there's also some some quite progressive causes supported by giving circles, like independent journalism and uh women's rights, and uh LGBTQ rights and democracy. Um in Hungary, we just they just had a uh giving circle event supporting four wonderful organizations uh who are trying to make the elections more transparent and more democratic. And it's really hard for them to get donations. So um we they asked different people from from Europe to be ambassadors, and we all got to fundraise for them. And and it wasn't about the money, it was more about the support that we're giving civil society there. Um because they're they're really restricted by their government. So, in a way, there's a bit of bold, but I would say the the big chunk of where the money goes goes into more traditional causes and within the country.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Yeah, another thing that I wanted to ask. I mean, we talked a little while back about the the sort of attitude of the the government within uh within Romania and and sort of within the region towards philanthropy and civil society. What's what's the attitude of the public? Because I always think that's something that interests me as well, in that you know, you can assume that everybody just thinks philanthropy and and you know charity is a is a great thing, but actually we've seen in many places that that's not the case, and there's a lot of skepticism or lack of trust. I mean, is the the general view if I was to stop somebody on the street in Romania and ask them, you know, what do you think about philanthropy, would would they know what I was talking about? And if they did, what would they be likely to say about it?

SPEAKER_02 35:56

No, I think uh if you stop them and ask them specifically this word, no. I have this experience because people ask me all the time, what do I do? So at first I just roll my eyes and ask, you know, how much time do you have? And if I um if I want to bamboozle them, I say I work in developing a philanthropy, and they ask me, is that stamps?

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Uh and I'm like, no, unfortunately it's not stems. And then I, or some people just, you know, if if they're uncomfortable to uh admit they're like, ah, okay, and you see they have no idea what they mean, and some people are more courageous and they want to know what it is, so that puts me in great difficulty to have to explain. But I think if you would ask a different question, a different word, then yes, you would get a better answer. So, you know, if you'd ask about maybe not necessarily charity, but sort of civil society or nonprofit organizations or a specific cause, I think there's there's there's been major progress in terms of communication, and there's there's definitely better understanding of um of the value of the third sector. Um it's it's not as appreciated in in other countries, but uh I think we've we've come a long way. And people give, people give through SMS giving, through direct debit, you know, for uh face-to-face fundraising, I think you call it in UK. Um also people give to churches, yes, of course, and that's without uh, you know, it's not transparent. So um that that there's different understandings, but um overall I think uh you know we've made good progress and and and people do do acknowledge the the need for you know associations and for us also doing things for ourselves, not just waiting for for the government to do something for us.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

And and you know, obviously, in terms of perceptions of philanthropy, given that you are you know work at a at a European level and also here in the UK, you're you know, you will be more than aware that there's a lot of discussion of philanthropy and actually, I mean, a lot of critique and criticism in recent years about you know philanthropy and its role in relation to inequality or where it sits in a democracy or power dynamics and that kind of thing. Do does that sort of resonate in the contexts in which you're working, or does it sometimes feel like these are discussions driven by the perspective of the US or the UK and actually don't have as much relevance in other places?

SPEAKER_02 38:38

I do think that, yes. I do think that there's a lot of discussion driven by UK and US uh contexts, and it doesn't apply to us, but then it somehow comes through media and it's misinterpreted, and it's actually not helping us to um to move along a better sector. Um just the other day my friend asked me, can I tell him if Bill Gates is a nice guy or not? Because he thinks he is, but after all, all of the all of the uh information on social media, he's now not convinced. And because I work in the sector, I probably know. So uh as you can imagine, was a hard question for me to ask.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Because it's you know it's it's complex and it's it's not straightforward. I think you know, philanthropy has achieved so many things, and and yes, he you know it's done great things, but if we're to look from the perspective of the sector on how the sector you know should criticize itself, yes, you need better governance, you you need representation. So there's critiques of philanthropy, but if you take those critiques out of context, then sometimes they can do more harm than good.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Yeah, no, I mean I absolutely agree, and I think, as you say, kind of nuance and context are what's needed, and unfortunately, that's often quite difficult, particularly when the discussions are playing out over social media and and elsewhere. Um, in terms of some of those kind of criticisms, but also you know, the debates that you know are kind of going on in in the philanthropy world at the moment, you know, there's a lot of discussion of uh rebalancing power dynamics, there's a lot of discussion of the role of measurement and whether we know we need to be comfortable with measuring less or whether we need to measure more. Which of those do you actually feel do you feel you know you you sort of listen to and you think, yes, actually, I do think that's a big issue that we need to get to grips with? And which of them do you sometimes sort of think, I'm you know, I'm not sure this is the thing we need to be focusing on?

SPEAKER_02 40:35

You know, again, it wants or it depends. Um, but I I think that the issue with power and you know, shifting it, sharing it and so on is you know a matter of context. And I think at first, if you have a big foundation trying to support development of the field in a country like you know, developing country like Romania and Eastern Europe, you won't be able to give all the power right away because there's not enough good practice for them to you know use that appropriately. But then once they gain more knowledge and more power in a national context, ideally as a funder, you don't get stuck in that relationship. You know, it's like a kid with parents and children. If you still see your children when they're 40 as your children, you won't be able to have a you know a nice relationship as an adult and adult. So, in a way, as a crowdmaker, if you don't see that your grantees have overcome that moment and you're still sort of controlling them and asking for this, you know, very specific indicators and so on, then I think that's wrong. And I think also the grantees should acknowledge their own power and you know ask and negotiate those funding proposals and and ask about those indicators and and advocate for you know a better relationship with their with their funders.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Yeah, no, I'm absolutely. I think I mean I think you're right, the sort of power is sometimes presented too simply as a kind of binary thing, and that that what we should be doing is just giving it away at all costs, which ignores the fact that actually sometimes power is something that needs to be used properly rather than than given away. And uh, you know, again, it's uh frustratingly dependent on context, and it's you know, it's you should be careful of kind of giving too simple a view on it.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Yeah, and uh just uh just just one more thing to add in terms of indicators. I think sometimes we are asked to challenge those indicators, but because we are not used to you know being uh responsible for our own indicators, we sometimes freeze. Uh so you have to to leave that transition space where you you know you find yourself and you find the model and say, you know, what's community leadership, or you know, how many organizations exercise their community leadership role. So you know, you have to stay with and think about and then come up with something and get back to your donor and say, you know, this is what I think it is. Um, but you you in a way you also have to feel confident enough in that relationship to be able to do that. Um and I'm I I hope in a way that's what we can do and sort of support national organizations and infrastructure to to be more confident in their power and what they're doing, and they're doing good, and and to sort of renegotiate those um those relationships.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm aware I'm in in danger of taking up too much of your time. I just I just wanted to ask, kind of both from the you know, the I mean your perspective sort of thinking in uh in terms of Central and Eastern Europe, community uh community philanthropy and European, it in all of those diff from all of those different perspectives, you know, what would you see as uh the things that make you kind of most optimistic about the next five or ten years of philanthropy? And what what do you see as your biggest challenges uh It's a nice easy one. Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Wow. I think I'm always most optimistic about the people. I think. And I saw a video this morning which is a bit cheesy about well, this guy in the US going with his son, um and having a flat tire, and well, people just helping them without asking money. And um then at some point someone said, Oh, but where are you leaving? And you know, he thought, oh, they're gonna ask, they're gonna ask us for payback, and then they just invited them for dinner. And when they went home, his father told him, you know, son, whatever you hear at, you know, reading the newspapers or uh see on television, this is how people really are. They're good, they're good people. So I think if we manage to keep that perspective, and and that's what I try to keep. So in a way, it's an open open hearted, you know, we are good people, and um that that's what excites me the most, and that's that's why I work in this field. Um in terms of challenges, I think the biggest challenges I see are are the political political ones. I think we see a lot of pushback from uh Russia, and uh in terms of trying to through religion as well and and through other ways, and also populism and the governments in in Poland, in in Hungary, in Turkey, and I think um those those in a way might be our biggest challenges in in the next year, and I hope that the sector is strong enough to to be resilient and and and pass through it.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think I think your emphasis there on remembering the sort of human element of at the heart of philanthropy and that kind of the fact that people are fundamentally uh decent um is is hugely important because it's very easy to get caught up in all of the you know the structures and the policy and all that and it's all of that stuff is important, but at its core, it doesn't really count for anything unless unless you have that sort of core element of of humanity. So I do think that's that's really important. Um, before I let you go, is there anything that you've got coming up that you want to make people aware of, any any publications or events or anything like that that you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Well, definitely um when we have the state of the field report on community foundations in Europe, that that's what uh we're intensively working on at the moment. So I hope that's gonna be a really exciting read. And um uh we'll we'll try to keep you updated on it and when it's um released. And we'll also prepare something uh with the funding network because we're celebrating 10 years of international work and they're celebrating 10 with 10 years of work in in United Kingdom.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Excellent. Well, I'll put links in the show notes to places where people can get more information about those and keep an eye out for the report when it comes out. Um, other than that, it just remains to say uh thanks ever so much, Mahela, for coming on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure to get a chance to talk to you. Um, and hopefully we can catch up and maybe even meet in person uh at some point in the not too distant future.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Such a wild idea. Also, I I also want to say thank you for having me. And um I'm not gonna apologize for my English because sometimes Eastern Europeans do that.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

I just gotta match up. Absolutely. I would I would be furious if you apologize for your English, given that you know, if we tried to conduct this in any other language than English, my my ability to do that would have been non-existent. So, you know, don't please.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

And and I just wanna give a shout out to to Pex, uh, um, because I think uh me being invited on on the podcast is um a testimony of how they're um collaborating and how they're opening the space in Europe um for you know people with different perspectives, practitioners to uh to to also share their their experience. So thank you to both of you.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Absolutely, and I know a lot, I know lots of people involved in PECs listen. So hello to all of you. Great. All right, thanks, Mihaila.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Thank you, bye.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Okay, great. Well, my thanks again to Mihaila for coming on the podcast. Um, as ever, I'll put some links in the show notes to various things that we discussed and where you can find out more um from about the work that Mihaila's doing and also things that I've written. Um, if you want more information on the podcast itself and to find uh all the episodes that we've done so far, check out the website at philanthropisms.com where you can also find an email address to send us suggestions of future guests that we could interview or topics that we could cover. Um do follow me on Twitter at Rodri underscore H underscore Davis or at philiteracy if you want stuff that's more about sort of history of philanthropy. And there's also uh a Twitter feed for the podcast uh itself which you can find. Other than that, just like, subscribe, do tell all your friends about it, and anyone that you think might be interested in episodes of the podcast, and we will see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Bye.